1938 stock on the IoW ("It is old, we must get rid of it")

[Manchester77]

I'm a bit surprised that NSE didn't order a few extra Class 482 units (the NSE variants of the LU 1992 stock) when they were ordering replacement stock for the Waterloo & City line.

Then there was also a missed opportunity to pick up some 1983 stock trains when they were made redundant from the Jubllee line around 1998. (Although they always were a bit rubbish, the single-leaf door arrangement might have actually worked on the Island line.)

482s were 4th rail as before they entered service the line was converted to standard LU electrification.

1983 stock had some issues with corrosion and reliability as well

 

[anthony263]

Are there any 1967 stock down in Eastleigh which if they are in good enough condition be shipped over to the Isle of wight. Even if the usage is only temporary just to allow one of the 1938 stock to be withdrawn and stripped for spares to keep the others going.

The line is a funny one since I visited the island about 3 years ago when were still the slammers working the Lymington branch. I took two trips on the the 1st the train was reasonably well used but the trip I took from Shanklin later that day the train was heaving, mostly with schoolchildren traveling home to Ryde.

I believe the deep level upgrade may now be back on although new rolling stock for the Bakerloo and Piccadily lines isnt likely to arrive until 2018 at the earliest. I believe LUL are having to get some parts to keep the 1972/1973 stock working from Ebay at least according to a thread I read on the district dave forum a year or two ago.

 

[Manchester77]

One rumour about the stored 67 stock is that should the Bakerloo be re- extended to Watford Junction then it'll require extra stock. I know that some of the 67 stock were stripped for spares for the Bakerloo both mechanical and interior. There's a few trains with the odd Victoria line blue grab rail or open close ventilator with the blue controls!

 

[lj9090]

Funnily enough, I've only ever seen it with 450s on.
I guess the advantage to keeping it electrified is to allow that extra capacity when needed

It's a 450 at the weekend, 158 during the week.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Are there any 1967 stock down in Eastleigh which if they are in good enough condition be shipped over to the Isle of wight. Even if the usage is only temporary just to allow one of the 1938 stock to be withdrawn and stripped for spares to keep the others going.

Probably not a good idea to introduce a single non standard unit to the fleet; might prove to be rather counter-productive?

 

[12CSVT]

There are several problems with the current Island, the chief ones are the equipment will need to renewed at some point and the irregular service. Currently while there are two trains an hour there is a 20 minute gap and then 40 minute gap.

For those on the Island it is an important local service, considering the poor local roads and especially important for transporting tourists.

There are have been a variety of proposals over the years for the Island line, and they revolve around doing something when someone bites the bullet and renews the infrastructure. The cheapest and most realistic is introduce a bit more dual track so that the service can become regular with a train every 30 minutes. Other ideas include extending the line to Ventnor again, the trackbed is clear, though one tunnel does have a some utility pipes in it. My favourite and most unlikely is to convert it to a tramway and rebuild it so 15 minute frequencies could be run.

Could they justify running a 20 minute service (ie 3 trains per hour) during busy periods ? Unfortunately passing loops are in the wrong places to operate a 30 minute frequency.

I suspect it is operationally convenient to keep the service as Ryde to Shanklin because a train takes almost exactly an hour to do a round trip.

 

[Eagle]

482s were 4th rail as before they entered service the line was converted to standard LU electrification.

1983 stock had some issues with corrosion and reliability as well

Also NSE ordered the 482s knowing full well that they would be giving them back to LU a couple of years later.


If anyone still doubts that this is a proper railway for public service and not just some pseudo-heritage tourist trap, here are the usage figures for 2010-11:
Ryde Pierhead 224,000
Ryde Esplanade 392,000
Ryde St John's Road 240,000
Smallbrook Junction 11,500
Brading 63,900
Sandown 271,000
Lake 67,700
Shanklin 346,000

That's comparable with many commuter branchlines in the southeast.

 

[Chris125]

Are there any 1967 stock down in Eastleigh which if they are in good enough condition be shipped over to the Isle of wight. Even if the usage is only temporary just to allow one of the 1938 stock to be withdrawn and stripped for spares to keep the others going.

There's really no need when they have 002, which has been sitting about at Ryde for many a year now awaiting overhaul - while the current fleet won't last for ever, as they've kept them going this long I see no reason why they can't be last until the Piccadilly stock becomes available.

Chris

 

[Carlisle]

That's right, Brading to Sandown was singled in 1989 and Sandown signalbox was closed shortly afterwards.

I hope that a few 1973 stock trains are reprieved for use on the Island Line, although to maximise the potential of new stock it would be worthwhile reinstating the loop at Brading to allow a regular half-hourly service. In 2010 there was an article in The Railway Magazine which explored options for the Island Line, including building a single track from Smallbrook Junction to Ryde St Johns solely for the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, or even rebuilding Ryde Pier Head to allow said trains to run round there.

What no-one on the Island wants is a cheap and nasty option, like building a guided busway.

As much as i like steam heritage railways i feel any long term funds would be better spent on reinstating the line to ventnor or extending the heritage line from wooton to Newport rather than duplicating the existing smallbrook to ryde line for steam .

 

[tranzitjim]

Could the new Deep Tube trains, the 2018 stock, could they buy some extras of those to give the IoW some brand new trains for a change?

By the way they are going, the 1972 stock is going to be too worn out for IoW?

 

[Lockwood]

It's a 450 at the weekend, 158 during the week.

Ah - that'd explain it then. I'm more likely to be in the Forest at weekends.

 

[Drsatan]

As much as i like steam heritage railways i feel any long term funds would be better spent on reinstating the line to ventnor or extending the heritage line from wooton to Newport rather than duplicating the existing smallbrook to ryde line for steam .

I doubt either of those two things will happen for the following reasons

1) Ventnor station was badly sited because it was a long way from the town centre and up a steep hill, and the site of the station is now occupied by an industrial estate. Most of the trackbed between Shanklin and Ventnor is now occupied by a water main, and the bridge which carried the railway across a road immediately after Shanklin station has long since been demolished.

2)The site of Newport station was built upon long ago and houses have been built on part of the trackbed. Reopening from Wootton to Newport (unless a kind, wealthy benefactor was able to fund Compulsory Purchase Orders for any buildings that had to be demolished) would thus be too expensive for a volunteer-run organisation.

 

[yorksrob]

As much as i like steam heritage railways i feel any long term funds would be better spent on reinstating the line to ventnor

I'd agree with that aspiration.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1) Ventnor station was badly sited because it was a long way from the town centre and up a steep hill

Ventnor Parkway !

 

[RobShipway]

Could the new Deep Tube trains, the 2018 stock, could they buy some extras of those to give the IoW some brand new trains for a change?

By the way they are going, the 1972 stock is going to be too worn out for IoW?

Unfortunately, if given the new trains you would have to put in place on the line the same level safety equipment that is being out into the tracks on the LUL within the tracks of the IOW line, which would make it pretty expensive for the IOW council to have them.

One thought cross my mind, however they may be too tall in height is the Class 313's once Southern has finished using them?

 

[Southern Dvr]

Has to be tube size stock to clear one of the bridges near Rude.

 

[Manchester77]

Could you rebuilt the bridge and then have purpose built vehicles with articulated sections for the curves in the tunnel? Maybe something like a 2 or 3 car version of the S stock?

 

[swt_passenger]

Unfortunately, if given the new trains you would have to put in place on the line the same level safety equipment that is being out into the tracks on the LUL within the tracks of the IOW line, which would make it pretty expensive for the IOW council to have them.

S stock runs on conventional LU signalling at the moment, which basically uses colour light signalling with the addition of train stops at the signals and trainborne trip cocks. Isle of Wight also has colour signalling with the addition of train stops, and trainborne trip cocks . I think you are quite wrong on this point...

 

[RobShipway]

S stock runs on conventional LU signalling at the moment, which basically uses colour light signalling with the addition of train stops at the signals and trainborne trip cocks. Isle of Wight also has colour signalling with the addition of train stops, and trainborne trip cocks . I think you are quite wrong on this point...

I sure I read either in Modern Railways or Rail magazine or possibly in one of the tube Video125 videos that I have, that as part of bringing in new rolling stock, modifications would be have to be made to the Infrastructure, which included the signal systems such that if required Automatic Train running can be enabled, in the same way that you have it on the Victoria line.

 

[455driver]

Any train can be run in manual mode, no need for all that fancy signalling to be installed on the island.

 

[swt_passenger]

I sure I read either in Modern Railways or Rail magazine or possibly in one of the tube Video125 videos that I have, that as part of bringing in new rolling stock, modifications would be have to be made to the Infrastructure, which included the signal systems such that if required Automatic Train running can be enabled, in the same way that you have it on the Victoria line.

That's for the future. I'm talking about now - the S stock in its 'as delivered' condition works on conventional LU signalling. It must do, so that it can work at the same time as the existing SSR stock. On completion of its introduction the S stock will then allow the SSR signalling to be upgraded but only when all the existing A, C and D stock has been withdrawn.

However, having anything brand new on the island is completely hypothetical - why not just accept they'll get second hand '73 stock, exactly as SWT have previously explained?

 

[Drsatan]

However, having anything brand new on the island is completely hypothetical - why not just accept they'll get second hand '73 stock, exactly as SWT have previously explained?

Sorry to barge in, I agree choosing 1973 stock would be the best option for replacement trains on the Isle of Wight, but rather than replacing like for like (i.e replacing five 483 units with five two car sets of '73 stock, plus one for spares), wouldn't it be a better idea to order maybe up to 10 two or three car sets of '73 stock, to allow for not only a half-hourly service (should the Brading passing loop be reinstated), but to allow for four or six car sets during the summer? I accept there must be a long-term solution for the Island Line, (like converting it into a tramway with street running to Shanklin town centre) but incrementally improving on what's available is a good short-term solution.

 

[Eagle]

IIRC there's a restriction on trains longer than two or three cars in the line (possibly due to the tunnels).

 

[455driver]

I was on a 4 coach train over there a few years ago so that doesnt seem likely.

 

[jopsuk]

IIRC there's a restriction on trains longer than two or three cars in the line (possibly due to the tunnels).

The previous stock ran in 7-car formation (4VEC + 3TIS)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

IIRC there's a restriction on trains longer than two or three cars in the line (possibly due to the tunnels).

I was on a 4 coach train over there a few years ago so that doesnt seem likely.

Indeed as was mentioned previously the old 1920s-vintage 485/486 sets were 3 & 4-cars long and could run as 7. Therefore if any restrictions on length have recently been introduced then it's fair to assume that this can be put right at a cost.

I always liked the 1983 Stock with it's Leyland Atlantean style interior, but the corrosion issues of stainless steel construction mean they wouldn't have lasted 5 years running up the pier!

As long as the height restriction is an issue, I can't see a tramway-type solution being viable on the Island Line.

 

[transmanche]

I was on a 4 coach train over there a few years ago so that doesnt seem likely.

Certainly when the ex-LT 1920s 'standard stock' went over to the Isle of Wight, they were formed up as 4-VEC and 3-TIS units - but they were withdrawn in 1992.

The ex-LT 1938 stock have always been formed up as 2-car units on the Isle of Wight.

 

[455driver]

The ex-LT 1938 stock have always been formed up as 2-car units on the Isle of Wight.

True, I was saying there was a 4 coach train running around made up of 2x2 coach units.

 

[Eagle]

Okay, what was I thinking of then?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

True, I was saying there was a 4 coach train running around made up of 2x2 coach units.

I'll back this up: There are 4 car rakes ( 2 units ) running most days.

 

[Ironside]

I'll back this up: There are 4 car rakes ( 2 units ) running most days.

I used them a few months ago and can also back this up.

It's a jouney worth taking, but if I do it again I am bringing ear defenders, as it's so loud you can't talk to the person next to you without shouting over some parts of the line; so I feel really sorry for the guard and driver.