1st gen DMUs and DEMUs

[Helvellyn]

There was the (cynical) view amongst railwaymen that the reason the Marylebone units had 1st Class was pressure from the upper echelons who worked at '222 'and breezed in from the Chilterns...

Well First Class in the 115s seems a step up from the 117s.

Class 115 TCL - https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/15354

Class 117 TCL - https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/117/works/5cr-146.jpg

 

[yorksrob]

Well First Class in the 115s seems a step up from the 117s.

Class 115 TCL - https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/15354

Class 117 TCL - https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/117/works/5cr-146.jpg

Those both look very comfortable.

I think that as far as mechanical DMU's go, I prefer the more well heeled versions designed for commuter services, to the rail bus types "oop north". Still prefer the thumpers though.

 

[Cowley]

Well First Class in the 115s seems a step up from the 117s.

Class 115 TCL - https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/15354

Class 117 TCL - https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/117/works/5cr-146.jpg

I hadn’t realised there was such a difference between the two types having never been in 1st class on a 115. That does look quite nice.

 

[Revaulx]

Those both look very comfortable.

I think that as far as mechanical DMU's go, I prefer the more well heeled versions designed for commuter services, to the rail bus types "oop north". Still prefer the thumpers though.

Indeed.

The Trans-Pennines were great as well; they even looked good. I think I only experienced the Swindon Inter-City 123 in its hacked-about form on the Manchester-Sheffields, but despite being pretty tatty by then their initial quality was still discernible.

The worst of the high-density suburban ones I experienced were the 127s, but again it was in their twilight years and they’d been absolutely run into the ground.

It was the low-density bus types that were generally awful, and they were the ones we mainly got around Manchester.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed.

The Trans-Pennines were great as well; they even looked good. I think I only experienced the Swindon Inter-City 123 in its hacked-about form on the Manchester-Sheffields, but despite being pretty tatty by then their initial quality was still discernible.

The worst of the high-density suburban ones I experienced were the 127s, but again it was in their twilight years and they’d been absolutely run into the ground.

It was the low-density bus types that were generally awful, and they were the ones we mainly got around Manchester.

I went on a 127 at Butterly a couple of years back and quite liked it. It had obviously had a bit of TLC in preservation though.

I was rather taken with the decor - cheerfull but not gaudy yellow formica and Bournemouth Blue moquette.

 

[Revaulx]

I went on a 127 at Butterly a couple of years back and quite liked it. It had obviously had a bit of TLC in preservation though.

I was rather taken with the decor - cheerfull but not gaudy yellow formica and Bournemouth Blue moquette.

Ah! Butterly is a place I've been intending to visit for decades. Maybe when this is all over...

 

[yorksrob]

Ah! Butterly is a place I've been intending to visit for decades. Maybe when this is all over...

Well worth the trip with loads to look at (particularly for me as I arrived there by thumper !).

 

[70014IronDuke]

The hinterland of Wellingborough is surprisingly large - Rushden / Higham Ferrers was 20,051 and Finedon/Irthlingborough 9,381, and all quite industrial in those days. Brackley or Woodford H. only has rural hinterland.

Was it 20,000 in 1961? Gosh.
I actually thought Wellingborough would have been more like 35-40K then, so I cut my guess for R/HF back because of this.
And as you say, there were other places too. Finedon and Irthlingboro must have housed a lot of folks for the ironworks and the nearby ironstone mines, I suppose.
Not forgetting the Weetabix Factory!

In your inevitable list, you are forgetting
d) What about passengers travelling to/from Corrour?

Perhaps we should start a new thread on this theme?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Indeed and much bigger again today. Whole load of missed opportunities with electrification to potentially grow the market from this part of Northants but that is for a totally different thread!

On a related note a first generation DMU service couldn't save the Northampton-Wellingborough-Peterborough Nene Valley route (too many level crossings in part) but it is one of those that retained through ticketing to key settlements on the replacement bus route, originally United Counties and now under Stagecoach as the X4.

I've started a new thread dedicated to Northampton - Peterborough issues. Here

Northampton - Peterborough / Traction and Closure Discussion

Taken from this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/1st-gen-dmus-and-demus.203611/page-6 I thought there is some important info in here that deserved a new thread for future researchers. Indeed and much bigger again today. Whole load of missed opportunities with electrification to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[70014IronDuke]

...
I had a look at that YouTube video, which is taken from an original 'Derby Lightweight' unit. It seems to be 'middle England' , that power station at the beginning, and the factory/chimney at the end, are quite distinctive! The closest line that these units were used on was Oxford-Bletchley-Cambridge, and the Buckingham branch.
Hopefully someone reading this might know!

Just to clarify, I believe the Buckingham branch only had the 'single unit' lightweights, M79900/1 I think were the numbers (as opposed to the 2 car DMUs on the 'main' Cambridge - Oxford line).
And they were at different periods. When the Buckingham branch closed (1962?), the 'main' line had two-car units with MBSs in the M50938 - 47 series (sorry, don't know these new fangled TOPS codes).

These were exchanged for the 1st gen Derby lightweights in around 1966, or possibly 67 I think - perhaps when the decision to close the line had been made.

 

[Grumpy]

Those both look very comfortable.

I spent 6 years as a first class season ticket holder commuting on the 117's (and the BRCW/Pressed Steel clones). I don't recall them being comfortable. The seat bases were too short with inadequate legroom. Similarly the doors to every bay meant that you had a good chance of your toes being trodden on by joining/alighting passengers. Seated passengers also enjoyed a blast of cold weather/rain whilst the doors were open. The doors also contributed lots of rattles and draughts. The heaters either didn't work or stank. The lighting levels were dismal. And they came with the usual DMU charms of poor ride and engine noise/vibration.
I had a few rides out of Marylebone on the 115's and remember these as more pleasing visually but all the same drawbacks apart from possibly a better ride.
What should have been provided was a DMU version of the 306 emu's with power doors and better bogies.

 

[hexagon789]

Well First Class in the 115s seems a step up from the 117s.

Class 115 TCL - https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/15354

Class 117 TCL - https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/117/works/5cr-146.jpg

You can actually 'see' the difference in the padding, it's that significant

 

[Richard Scott]

Purely possible as the 115’s had 2+3 seating in standard yet 2+ 1 in 1st which for a suburban DMU seemed luxurious. we

I know 117 units had same arrangement so possibly standard arrangement for suburban DMUs.

 

[hexagon789]

I know 117 units had same arrangement so possibly standard arrangement for suburban DMUs.

116s had 2+2 in First

 

[yorksrob]

.

I spent 6 years as a first class season ticket holder commuting on the 117's (and the BRCW/Pressed Steel clones). I don't recall them being comfortable. The seat bases were too short with inadequate legroom. Similarly the doors to every bay meant that you had a good chance of your toes being trodden on by joining/alighting passengers. Seated passengers also enjoyed a blast of cold weather/rain whilst the doors were open. The doors also contributed lots of rattles and draughts. The heaters either didn't work or stank. The lighting levels were dismal. And they came with the usual DMU charms of poor ride and engine noise/vibration.
I had a few rides out of Marylebone on the 115's and remember these as more pleasing visually but all the same drawbacks apart from possibly a better ride.
What should have been provided was a DMU version of the 306 emu's with power doors and better bogies.

Don't you miss not having to wait five minutes whilst half a carriage worth tries to pile out the door ?

 

[RT4038]

Was it 20,000 in 1961? Gosh.
I actually thought Wellingborough would have been more like 35-40K then, so I cut my guess for R/HF back because of this.
And as you say, there were other places too. Finedon and Irthlingboro must have housed a lot of folks for the ironworks and the nearby ironstone mines, I suppose.
Not forgetting the Weetabix Factory!


Perhaps we should start a new thread on this theme?

A lot of folk were employed in the leather (and clothing) industries then, as it was very labour intensive. As well as already mentioned, places like Irchester, Raunds, Bozeat and Earls Barton all had these kind of factories, in between the terraced houses. Most of the local train journeys made would have transferred to the new fangled omnibus services in the 1920s, which had more convenient stopping places and went where the people wanted to go. (Raunds to Rushden would have been a right palaver by train!). Wellingborough would have been a railhead for quite a wide area and population.
All this completely changed by the 1980s, Far East manufacturing and motor cars, but Wellingborough now has quite an amount of London commuters.

Of course R/HF had an hourly bus service to London ('The Birch' or latterly United Counties 203/203M) [later cut back to 2 hourly], supported by the town of Bedford and the airbases of Cardington and Henlow. Must have been a fair size to support that!

 

[Revaulx]

Don't you miss not having to wait five minutes whilst half a carriage worth tries to pile out the door ?

Modern suburban stock doesn't have that problem, unless it's not actually suburban stock (e.g a 158).

A more reasonable criticism is that on a 115/117/VEP/whatever, there was a good chance that you could enjoy your journey sitting down.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Modern suburban stock doesn't have that problem, unless it's not actually suburban stock (e.g a 158).

A more reasonable criticism is that on a 115/117/VEP/whatever, there was a good chance that you could enjoy your journey sitting down.

Sitting down? Yes
Enjoying your journey (whilst freezing cold, blown to pieces, having people treading on your toes, etc.)? Not necessarily the case

I did regularly use these types.

 

[yorksrob]

I've had many delightful journeys on VEP's. I can't remember having to stand on one.

 

[Revaulx]

Sitting down? Yes
Enjoying your journey (whilst freezing cold, blown to pieces, having people treading on your toes, etc.)? Not necessarily the case

I did regularly use these types.

I'm quite a fan of the 802s. The interiors are rather cheap and cheerful but fundamentally they are excellent trains. I do prefer one thing about the 185s though; it's easler to get on and off them.

At least one person on the 802 thread has lauded the end door design though, reckoning it not only gives more of a Express Train ambience, but also is a lot less draughty.

So people still complain about the same things

 

[Revaulx]

I've had many delightful journeys on VEP's. I can't remember having to stand on one.

They were pretty rubbish if one was unlucky enough to find that one's usual CEP from Canterbury to London had been replaced by one.

Things have been going to hell in a handcart for decades. The CEPs and early (Brighton) CIGs felt as though they'd had a lot more trouble taken over them than the VEPs and later (Portsmouth) CIGs. And I don't think that in the case of the VEPs it was just down to the multiple slam doors that everyone so despises nowadays. Even when the CEPS were old they weren't as rattly.

 

[yorksrob]

They were pretty rubbish if one was unlucky enough to find that one's usual CEP from Canterbury to London had been replaced by one.

Things have been going to hell in a handcart for decades. The CEPs and early (Brighton) CIGs felt as though they'd had a lot more trouble taken over them than the VEPs and later (Portsmouth) CIGs. And I don't think that in the case of the VEPs it was just down to the multiple slam doors that everyone so despises nowadays. Even when the CEPS were old they weren't as rattly.

The CIG's were the better of the long distance units (even the later Portsmouth ones, although not as good as the Brighton ones).

I preferred the VEP's over the refurbed CEP's, which were a bit too hard and modern for my taste. The VEP's had a more homely feel to me. I always enjoyed getting a compartment to myself for a slow trip between Ashford and Victoria.

 

[Sprinter107]

I liked the VEPs too. Having been brought up on 116s and 117s, i always liked having a door right by where i was sitting. You didnt have to queue to get on or off either, like with the low density stuff. I didnt find them terribly draughty either, just occasionally if the door seals needed replacing. Yes, i remember it wasnt very often you couldnt get a seat. There was just the odd occasion on my 116 and 117 worked route if it was short formed or the one in front didnt run, where you might have to stand in the guards van.

 

[43096]

The ability to get a seat was probably more down to the lower passenger numbers back then.

The VEPs were an absolute abomination: out of date before they were built and left much of the Southern stuck in a time warp until the 21st century.

The best of the slam door stock was the refurbished CEPs: they at least had comfortable seats.

 

[JonathanH]

I've had many delightful journeys on VEP's. I can't remember having to stand on one.

It was certainly possible to have to stand on VEPs. I remember doing so boarding Waterloo to Reading trains in the peak at Clapham Junction.

 

[yorksrob]

It was certainly possible to have to stand on VEPs. I remember doing so boarding Waterloo to Reading trains in the peak at Clapham Junction.

Oh I don't doubt it was. Fortunately, I tended to travel outside of peak hours, and I found sitting on a VEP more comfortable than doing so on a 150 or a pacer, for example.

 

[delt1c]

Oh I don't doubt it was. Fortunately, I tended to travel outside of peak hours, and I found sitting on a VEP more comfortable than doing so on a 150 or a pacer, for example.

Would agree the 3+2 on a VEP was for me far superior than a 150, bright , airy, rarely draughty and seats comfortable. Unlike the 150 with misaligned windows and dull and dreary

 

[eastwestdivide]

...The best of the slam door stock was the refurbished CEPs: they at least had comfortable seats.

Well eventually - as originally refurbished, the seat bases were pretty hard - looked thick but with hardly any 'give' in them at all. And while the thin/hard seats on today's stock are compensated by a mostly smooth ride, the track on the SE division was as ropey as ever!

 

[Merle Haggard]

A lot of folk were employed in the leather (and clothing) industries then, as it was very labour intensive. As well as already mentioned, places like Irchester, Raunds, Bozeat and Earls Barton all had these kind of factories, in between the terraced houses. Most of the local train journeys made would have transferred to the new fangled omnibus services in the 1920s, which had more convenient stopping places and went where the people wanted to go. (Raunds to Rushden would have been a right palaver by train!). Wellingborough would have been a railhead for quite a wide area and population.
All this completely changed by the 1980s, Far East manufacturing and motor cars, but Wellingborough now has quite an amount of London commuters.

Of course R/HF had an hourly bus service to London ('The Birch' or latterly United Counties 203/203M) [later cut back to 2 hourly], supported by the town of Bedford and the airbases of Cardington and Henlow. Must have been a fair size to support that!

Might be worth pointing out that the major inter-town travel demand in that part of the County in the '60s was North-South along the line of the A6; of course the MML was further west between Kettering and Bedford, and the branches ran East-West.

London commuters living in east Northampton town realised long ago that the drive to Wellingborough station via the A45 Nene Valley Way was easier than driving through town to Northampton station, and the MML service was faster and more comfortable than the service into Euston. This undoubtedly increased Wellingborough commuter numbers.

Not sure why the original post hasn't been moved to the new thread, though.

Edi.ted for typo.

 

[Helvellyn]

Well eventually - as originally refurbished, the seat bases were pretty hard - looked thick but with hardly any 'give' in them at all. And while the thin/hard seats on today's stock are compensated by a mostly smooth ride, the track on the SE division was as ropey as ever!

Yet the CEPs and BEPs were refurbished with IC70 seats, much beloved in other threads especially where HSTs are concerned. The one difference is that NSE retained the original seat squabs design rather than the updated ones that were more contoured and used by InterCity from the mid-1990s.