2-Hap withdrawals

[43021HST]

I'm just trying to find some rough details regarding 2-Hap withdrawals, I've always thought they were withdrawn in the early 80s, with some converted to GLVs but I think I've seen pictures of them in NSE livery which suggests they carried on until at least the mid to late 80s.

I'm just curious as to when the withdrawal dates were for the final members of the class and what they're diagrams were before withdrawal. I don't mind if the dates are not exact, I'd just like a rough idea.

I have heard that they were simply absorbed into the EPB fleet during the refurbishments of most 3rd rail units carried out during the early 80s.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm just trying to find some rough details regarding 2-Hap withdrawals, I've always thought they were withdrawn in the early 80s, with some converted to GLVs but I think I've seen pictures of them in NSE livery which suggests they carried on until at least the mid to late 80s.

I'm just curious as to when the withdrawal dates were for the final members of the class and what they're diagrams were before withdrawal. I don't mind if the dates are not exact, I'd just like a rough idea.

I have heard that they were simply absorbed into the EPB fleet during the refurbishments of most 3rd rail units carried out during the early 80s.

There were quite a few that remained in use into the mid 90's. I remember travelling in them in Kent and London when they were in NSE livery (at Ashford they were quite rare compared to the VEP's and CEP's, but you did see them now and again).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The 1994 combined volume lists five units ( 4308, 4309, 4311, 4313 and 4314 ), in the 1995 book 4314 had gone and none remained for the 1996 voluime. The permanently coupled pairs known as 4-CAP vanished at the same time.

 

[physics34]

Towards the end the CAPs just worked EPB diagrams with their toilets locked out and first class disclassified.

Think the later HAPs, recognised by their smaller headcode boxes, (mostly on the south western division) were withdrawn first around 1982 due to asbestos contamination.

 

[yorksrob]

Up until 94/95, I think they tended to be used to strengthen peak time services.

 

[theageofthetra]

Definitely remember them going through Tonbridge in late 80's normally attached to coast bound train to strngthen.

 

[43021HST]

So I assume they spent the last of their days on Suburban turns. Just reading a book about their early days, some operated with up to 5 of them coupled together to create a 10 car set! These were used on semi stoppers out to places like Ramsgate. I'm just wondering if this practice was used in their later days.

 

[yorksrob]

So I assume they spent the last of their days on Suburban turns. Just reading a book about their early days, some operated with up to 5 of them coupled together to create a 10 car set! These were used on semi stoppers out to places like Ramsgate. I'm just wondering if this practice was used in their later days.

Well, they were originally the mainstay of long distance stopping services to the Kent Coast as part of the Kent electrification scheme until the VEP's came in in the mid seventies when most of of the HAP's went to the western division. However, there were definately a few on longer distance services in the early 90's because I remember seeing them very occasionally around Ashford (Kent).

The one being done up at the NRM by the NSE society went back to Ramsgate in the 90's for longer distance services, was withdrawn in 95 I think, then reinstated for a few months on suburban services before final withdrawal.

 

[Perseverance]

Nice comfortable units, especially in first class, the 2-HAPS, as I remember them from when I worked for BR on the Western Section in the 70's. We also had the 2-SAPs with the declassified first class, in which I would invariably travel.

You will still be able to ride in a HAP vehicle in 2015, although it only has Driver and Guard seats!

At the Barry Tourist Railway, we run our GATEX set with ex 2-HAP DMBSO 61280, now DMLV 68509 / GLV 489110 in push-pull mode with our Cl 73. This vehicle was converted into a GLV in 1983/4 I believe.

We are currently installing a generator in GLV 9110 so that we can power up the door locks, air-conditioning and lights on our GATEX set for next season.

9110 is a joy to drive - precise controls, very smooth ride, and extremely quiet, as the noise of the Class 73 diesel engine is at the rear, 3 coach lengths behind you - feels better than a driving a Rolls to me! We'll have to try to make sure that the new generator set-up isn't too loud to mar the effect!

We are currently putting our timetable and programme together for 2015 and we'll advertise the days when we plan to use the GATEX set in due course. Although the GLV has no passenger seats, we are prepared to offer the opportunity of a supervised cab ride for those who, like me, are really interested in these vehicles and Southern electrics in general.

John Buxton
Director
Barry Tourist Railway

 

[455driver]

Any chance of 68509 being converted back into a passenger coach in the future?

 

[Taunton]

They did run pretty much all the Kent Coast stopping services in the 1960s-70s beyond the London suburban area, many of which were quite lengthy runs which with their suburban interiors they weren't really suited for, although the seats were indeed better padded than their contemporary EPB units. They not infrequently MU'd with the latter on peak hour services from London, I believe the last batch of BR-design EPBs had a higher speed to facilitate this.

For example, at that time there was an hourly service from Charing Cross, fast via Woolwich/Dartford, then stopping everywhere to Ramsgate. This was an 8HAP formation, which divided at Sittingbourne with half the train going to Sheerness. In peak periods there was another I recall, 10-coach, which came through London Bridge at about 1800, 4EPB on the front and 6HAP at the rear. I think for a long time the 2HAPs were the only units used through Maidstone, on all routes.

There was also quite a batch of SR-design 2HAP as well, they were only a year or two older but had the original generation EPB bodystyle stuck onto old SR underframes, in best Southern style. These were completely mixed in with the others in service.

They did start withdrawl somewhat prematurely around 1980, being less than 20 years old, which was apparently due to asbestos content which it wasn't worth the cost of stripping, although other units lasted until 1995. I don't know if these were put through the asbestos treatment or they never had it in the first place.

 

[Perseverance]

I don't think that it would be feasible, especially now that we have installed the generator and transducer.
John

 

[phil281]

I think I remember travelling on these as a child in the early 90's between Ascot and Aldershot. Would this be right?

 

[theblackwatch]

The last sets were withdrawn in early 1995. I recall, after they were supposed to have finished, getting a phone call from a rather excited person who had arrived at London Victoria to find all four surviving sets on one train! (I'll have details of the date and service somewhere.)

There's some details on the rundown of the last few units on this page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/5473081181/

 

[chris7153]

The vast majority of the 173 2-Hap units, were withdrawn between 1982 and 1985.

The remainder;

21 units were renumbered 4301 - 4321 and used on the South west division out of waterloo until the early 1990's

48 units were coupled together as 4 Caps in 1982 renumbered 3201 - 13 and 3301 -11 orignally used on South Coast services out of Brighton but later transferred to Kent area.

Plus 10 withdrawn carriages were also converted into Gatwick express MLV's 9101 - 9110.

These units lasted until around 1995, with various reforms etc.

 

[yorksrob]

Seems a dreadful waste to have withdrawn so many so early. Particularly as it happened just as the horrible slidy door things were coming in.

 

[455driver]

Seems a dreadful waste to have withdrawn so many so early. Particularly as it happened just as the horrible slidy door things were coming in.

Umm, thats why they were withdrawn, they were replaced by those wonderful slidy door things!

 

[yorksrob]

Umm, thats why they were withdrawn, they were replaced by those wonderful slidy door things!

What a depressing thought

 

[physics34]

Umm, thats why they were withdrawn, they were replaced by those wonderful slidy door things!

and the later ones have alot of asbestos in them i think. Correct me if im wrong.

 

[Taunton]

I just recalled that although the 2-HAP were mainly built for local services in Kent, outside the London suburban area, and dominated these for some time, I did learn that they were banned between Folkestone and Dover because of the narrow single-bore tunnels through Shakespeare Cliff, which were determined to be too narrow for an emergency evacuation from side doors, so gangwayed stock 4-CEP/VEP had to monopolise trains on that section. Not certain if it was always like this or came later; if the latter it might explain why 4-VEP came to the SE Division to replace them on some workings when they were only about 10 years old. They did appear at Dover, of course, coming down from either Faversham or Ramsgate. Anyone know more?

 

[yorksrob]

I just recalled that although the 2-HAP were mainly built for local services in Kent, outside the London suburban area, and dominated these for some time, I did learn that they were banned between Folkestone and Dover because of the narrow single-bore tunnels through Shakespeare Cliff, which were determined to be too narrow for an emergency evacuation from side doors, so gangwayed stock 4-CEP/VEP had to monopolise trains on that section. Not certain if it was always like this or came later; if the latter it might explain why 4-VEP came to the SE Division to replace them on some workings when they were only about 10 years old. They did appear at Dover, of course, coming down from either Faversham or Ramsgate. Anyone know more?

I'd always wondered when that ruling came in as I'd assumed that HAP's were allowed through at least until the VEP's came in in the mid 70's.

 

[theageofthetra]

A similar issue affected the Hitachi high speed units through those tunnels as there is no corridor connection between the units. I think some sort of work was done in these tunnels to resolve it?

 

[30907]

I'd always wondered when that ruling came in as I'd assumed that HAP's were allowed through at least until the VEP's came in in the mid 70's.

Don't know the date of the ruling, but certainly the BR Haps worked all over the SED, including the xx10 semifasts off CX which ran via Folkestone. These, and the xx36 Ramsgate via Greenwich, must have been the longest regular through workings by half-lav stock on the SR (followed by Brighton via Eridge with the even newer 3-Ds), and I'd always assumed the VEPs were a response to public discomfort rather than tunnel safety. They certainly went onto xx 55 Vic - Maidstone - Ashford - Margate fairly early.

 

[yorksrob]

Don't know the date of the ruling, but certainly the BR Haps worked all over the SED, including the xx10 semifasts off CX which ran via Folkestone. These, and the xx36 Ramsgate via Greenwich, must have been the longest regular through workings by half-lav stock on the SR (followed by Brighton via Eridge with the even newer 3-Ds), and I'd always assumed the VEPs were a response to public discomfort rather than tunnel safety. They certainly went onto xx 55 Vic - Maidstone - Ashford - Margate fairly early.

That's interesing. I would have thought a refurbishment with inter carriage vestibules would have been eaaier than wholesale withdrawal though !

 

[Taunton]

The 2-HAPs were part of the total EP braking changeover on the SE division around 1960. Not only were the suburban 4-SUB all moved out to the other two divisions, being replaced by new 4-EPB, but the pre-war 2-HAL which were built around 1939 for Victoria-Maidstone/Gillingham were all replaced by the new HAPs, and also moved across to the other two divisions, where they displaced the elderly 2-NOL units. These were then stripped of their old bodywork and formed the frames, with new bodies, for the Southern-style 2-HAP numbered 5601 upwards. It's notable that although these are of the older body style compared to the main BR-pattern 2-HAP, they actually were delivered well after the BR-pattern ones were introduced.

 

[30907]

That's interesting. I would have thought a refurbishment with inter carriage vestibules would have been easier than wholesale withdrawal though !

Interesting idea.

David Brown in his Southern Electric - A New History vol 2 says that the SED VEPs were built because finance was available rather than because of need. He gives an excellent summary of the history of the various batches of HAP.

It wasn't so long after that changed economic and political circumstances led to service cuts, and to HAPs increasingly appearing on suburban routes.

 

[yorksrob]

Interesting idea.

David Brown in his Southern Electric - A New History vol 2 says that the SED VEPs were built because finance was available rather than because of need. He gives an excellent summary of the history of the various batches of HAP.

It wasn't so long after that changed economic and political circumstances led to service cuts, and to HAPs increasingly appearing on suburban routes.

A similar thing was done with some of the Oxted thumpers when the Ashford - Brighton through service began (first time round). You'd have needed to "knock through" between the two saloons in the non-corridor car as well, but then the whole unit would have access to a toilet.

I understand the HAP's displaced quite a few SUB's when they went west.