• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

319 allocation - there's 8 left over!

Status
Not open for further replies.

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
Add to that GC VWC XC FTPE many many places could use themit is incredible to think though that if hitachi crack this we could have some very useful units for allowing gradual electrification and diversions during planned engineering works

I am kicking myself for not mentioning XC in my previous post!

A bi-mode train would be perfect for XC services (e.g. Manchester - Coventry is electrified, Glasgow - York is electrified...) - we could finally be rid of Voyagers!

This is one of the benefits of bi-mode to me, as you fully electrify one line you can then move bi-mode trains onto other "nearly 100% electrified" routes. If Cardiff - Swansea gets wired then I presume it'd be with electric trains, with the bi-modes moving elsewhere.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,692
I am kicking myself for not mentioning XC in my previous post!

A bi-mode train would be perfect for XC services (e.g. Manchester - Coventry is electrified, Glasgow - York is electrified...) - we could finally be rid of Voyagers!

This is one of the benefits of bi-mode to me, as you fully electrify one line you can then move bi-mode trains onto other "nearly 100% electrified" routes. If Cardiff - Swansea gets wired then I presume it'd be with electric trains, with the bi-modes moving elsewhere.

i think between us we could come up with a cracking electrification strategy for this country, if only someone would sack the current ones.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,692
And if they gave us something of a blank cheque!

exactly ;) id love one of them.

i still reckon i could come up with something better for harrogate line than what there currently wanting so.... infairness all jokes aside the point stands :)
 

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
4,568
This is one of the benefits of bi-mode to me, as you fully electrify one line you can then move bi-mode trains onto other "nearly 100% electrified" routes. If Cardiff - Swansea gets wired then I presume it'd be with electric trains, with the bi-modes moving elsewhere.

But then you have still ordered new diesel Intercity trains that we won't be rid of (along with their associated increased emmisions) unil 2050 (unless you take the engines out and convert them to EMUs of course, but then why pay the extra with diesel engines in the first place). Much better in my opinion to start phasing out diesel traction on Intercity routes now by not ordering any more and providing the required electrfication.

Another thing I think might not have been considered when dropping Swansea from the electrification program is the reduction in costs (due to the higher energy requirements and track maintainance cost caused by the extra weight) that will be incured east of Cardiff. Ie. I think the case might have been looked at in isolation and not taken into account the effect it has on strengthening the case for the already anounced wiring.
 

anthony263

Established Member
Joined
19 Aug 2008
Messages
6,539
Location
South Wales
i have a feeling that the wag might try to get the wires to swansea in the valley lines electrification program. if/when the annouce it.
 

12CSVT

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2010
Messages
2,612
Maybe the eight left over 319s could be used on Leeds - Harrogate - York services. It would put an end to the hare brained idea of using old Underground stock on this line.
 

ukrob

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2009
Messages
1,810
Maybe the eight left over 319s could be used on Leeds - Harrogate - York services. It would put an end to the hare brained idea of using old Underground stock on this line.

There are not eight left over though.

Nobody knows how many will be required - this thread is just flawed guesswork.
 

Skimble19

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2009
Messages
1,489
Location
London
I wouldn't be so certain about all of the GN stock (bar 313's) being displaced.. 125mph unit's aren't suitable for a lot of GN services that won't be going through to TL.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,446
How many would you need to operate the Wimbledon loop service to/from Blackfriars?

I can see why you suggest this, but why would you waste useful 100 mph AC EMUs on that service when they are more useful on newly electrified lines? All the Wimbledon/Sutton loop needs is 455s or similar...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think they will be using the new thameslink stock on that route

Almost certainly not, because all the indications are that it won't be part of the franchise by then, it doesn't need dual voltage stock, and in the case of the the 12 car units they won't fit...
 
Last edited:

anthony263

Established Member
Joined
19 Aug 2008
Messages
6,539
Location
South Wales
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Almost certainly not, because all the indications are that it won't be part of the franchise by then, it doesn't need dual voltage stock, and in the case of the the 12 car units they won't fit...

Ok thanks, i didnt know they had changed the plans, i had thought it would have been part of the new thameslink franchise, but it appears that i was mistaken. thanks for clearing that up though.

any idea what the current plans are for that route then?
 

12CSVT

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2010
Messages
2,612
I thought Blackfriars - Wimbledon - Sutton - Blackfriars was going to be taken over by Southern. Anyway at current frequencies you'd need 6 or 7 units to run the service (double that in the peaks when they are 8 car)
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
i have a feeling that the wag might try to get the wires to swansea in the valley lines electrification program. if/when the annouce it.

The WAG are going to be in an awkward position if the next WCML franchise means wiring from Crewe to Chester.

It means London - Cardiff and London - Chester will both be electrified routes, which potentially downgrades Holyhead and Swansea to "second class" (fewer London services?).

But since those in Wales have been arguing for greater power over rail, the cost of wiring Chester - Holyhead and Cardiff - Swansea would come from the WAG budget.

All of a sudden having that control/power over rail is a double edged sword, because it'll be up to those in Cardiff Bay whether they want to spend the money on infrastructure (or they want to be the ones who turn this down). Can't blame London any more...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But then you have still ordered new diesel Intercity trains that we won't be rid of (along with their associated increased emmisions) unil 2050 (unless you take the engines out and convert them to EMUs of course, but then why pay the extra with diesel engines in the first place). Much better in my opinion to start phasing out diesel traction on Intercity routes now by not ordering any more and providing the required electrfication

You'll not electrify all lines by 2050 though, there will always be bits not done yet. Much of XC is already electrified, but not all - I don't think it will ever be 100%.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,446
Ok thanks, i didnt know they had changed the plans, i had thought it would have been part of the new thameslink franchise, but it appears that i was mistaken. thanks for clearing that up though.

any idea what the current plans are for that route then?

Either Blackfriars bays and round the loop back to Blackfriars bays, or between Blackfriars bays and London Bridge. It was first discussed in the South London RUS from 2008, but has now been included on the Thameslink programme website as well; and it is generally considered unlikely to remain part of the Thameslink franchise, however that was befoer people started talking about combining the franchise with Southern. Either way it isn't at all likely to use the new stock because the fleet size is designed specifically for the long distance 'cross river' service patterns...

Basically the Wimbledon-Sutton service cannot run through the central core as it does now, because the approach is on the wrong side of the four track section through Elephant and Castle.
 

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
4,568
The WAG are going to be in an awkward position if the next WCML franchise means wiring from Crewe to Chester.

It means London - Cardiff and London - Chester will both be electrified routes, which potentially downgrades Holyhead and Swansea to "second class" (fewer London services?).

But since those in Wales have been arguing for greater power over rail, the cost of wiring Chester - Holyhead and Cardiff - Swansea would come from the WAG budget.

All of a sudden having that control/power over rail is a double edged sword, because it'll be up to those in Cardiff Bay whether they want to spend the money on infrastructure (or they want to be the ones who turn this down). Can't blame London any more...
Interesting point, though I think Westminster are waiting for the Welsh Assembly to cough up some money towards Swansea and ValleyLines electrification despite the Welsh Assembly having turned down further powers for rail (meaning as far as I can tell any funding from WAG for rail has to be diverted from money allocated to WAG for other purposes). I'd be very supprised if service cuts to Swansea were on the cards, with or without wiring, because without wires DfT will order the bi-modes. Holyhead though would be difficult, without a fairly major shakeup of service patterns (the hourly ATW Holyhead services would have to cease extending towards Wrexham) the London trains would be the only services using the wires west of Llandudno Junction (and I don't know whether the Llandudno - Manchester route would be all wired) so it might be hard to make a case for wiring. That leaves two options, keep the awful Voyagers or do what they do once a week anyway and drag a pendo behind one of their 57s. I'd probably take the second option, but how much do you have to cut the frequency to get away without too many locos? How many 57s would be needed for a 2-hourly service (more trains per day, but without the hourly-ish peak trains which would add on loco requirements).

You'll not electrify all lines by 2050 though, there will always be bits not done yet. Much of XC is already electrified, but not all - I don't think it will ever be 100%.
It depends how fast wiring can be done, if we can only manage 60 miles a year then perhaps not, but with Network Rail suggesting at one point they could have 3 factory trains each capable of a mile a night (200 miles a year, but I'm not sure if you have to double the time they've given for double track lines) we shouldn't have a problem.

Anyway, I'm guessing at a halfway-ish figure, 100miles per year, and I reckon it should be possible to wire all INTERCITY routes (save 1 or 2 trains per day jobs like Pembroke Dock and Carmarthen, which dragging with a 75/90mph diesel locomotive would cover easily) by 2050. Given that the Voyagers, 222s and 180s should last a good while yet and IC125s can reach 2035 I think we can and should avoid ordering any new diesel stock capable of more than 100mph. Replacing elderly regional/surburban DMUs (Pacers being the biggest challange due to the 2020 regulations) without having to order new diesel trains sadly is likely to be unavoidable, but I doubt 125mph bi-mode INTERCITY trains with 26m carriges (which may prove to be almost as restrictive in terms of cascades for IEP as the 166/165's extra width) would be that useful in a casscade to replace, say, 153s.
 
Last edited:

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Either Blackfriars bays and round the loop back to Blackfriars bays, or between Blackfriars bays and London Bridge. It was first discussed in the South London RUS from 2008, but has now been included on the Thameslink programme website as well; and it is generally considered unlikely to remain part of the Thameslink franchise, however that was befoer people started talking about combining the franchise with Southern. Either way it isn't at all likely to use the new stock because the fleet size is designed specifically for the long distance 'cross river' service patterns...

Basically the Wimbledon-Sutton service cannot run through the central core as it does now, because the approach is on the wrong side of the four track section through Elephant and Castle.

Also to add also that the service in question is restricted to 8 cars for a number of reasons, so no 12 cars.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top