Arriva 175
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- Joined
- 13 Jul 2011
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- 61
Am I correct in assuming that Southern wont be getting any of its Class 319s back from First Capital Connect. I only thought they were on a long term lease and hadnt been completely transferred.
Am I correct in assuming that Southern wont be getting any of its Class 319s back from First Capital Connect. I only thought they were on a long term lease and hadnt been completely transferred.
The current Manchester Airport-Liverpool Lime Street runs via the Chat Moss.
Did you not read the bit I wrote underneath?
That's the kind of suggestion which'll make Metro kick up a fuss - replacing trains they sponsor with older trains.
As I've already explained in my replies to Class172 Northern will need a minimum of 48 EMUs in the North West to not use DMUs on completely electrified routes.
There is a possibly of LM taking some 323s as I've pointed out there will be some 319s not directly replacing anything. However, Northern won't get enough cascaded EMUs to replace the entire 323 fleet.
No you're not right. There's been 2 x 323s which were out-of-service long term but they have both returned to service. One derailed near Alderley Edge on an ECS run and the other was running a Manchester-Stoke service when a Land Rover parked on a hill near Congleton rolled down the hill, on to the railway line hitting a 323 (and I think a Voyager travelling in the other direction was also involved.)
Once Bromsgrove is built, there will be a basic requirement for 16 units on the Cross City line. There will be 9 morning and 7 evening peak services requiring 6 cars, but I'm not sure how many 6 car trains operate both morning and evening services that require 6 cars.
The Chase Linke will require 6 units (4 regular operations, 2 morning peak extras), so I'm not sure enough will be left over after those used on the cross city line and the 10 units required elsewhere (5 Walsall-Wolverhampmton, 3 on maintainence, 1 emergency cover and 1 New Street - International shuttle). Another two 323's may be required elesewhere in the medium term if the Aldrdige extension is built and there is a timetable re-cast on the Birmingham - Coventry line.
It may be more cost effective to put the left over 323's onto Cross City line trains that don't actually need extra capacity than electrifying the Chase Line.
But then again, electrifying the Chase line would displace one 153, one 3 car 170 and three 2 car 170's. The 153 could go to FGW or Northern and the 170'd could go to Cross Country for the proposed Hereford-Worcester-Birmingham-Tamworth/Nuneaton cross city service. The rolling stock for the extra Birmingham - Worcester services would come from the 170's currently used for peak time extras, but not during the day. I'm not sure if 4 extra 170's would be enough for an extra hourly Birmingham-Tamworth and Birmingham Nuneaton/Leicester service. It's only a suggestion.
Anything has got to be better than leaving a very small number of 323's at Northern when all their other EMU's in the North West would be 319's. I doubt they'd be able to justify the maintianence costs.
and therefore not helping get rid of Pacers, I know
Metro kicked up a fuss a few years ago at the idea that they lose their 333s (built 2000) for cascaded 323s (1992).
321/322s are as old as 319s, so its a completely different comparison
Talking of the West Midlands, is there any chance of LM ordering some 380s (available in three/four coach length) to replace their 323s (which could then head to Lancashire)? The 380s would have more in common with LM 350s (than the 323s), plus the flexibility of being able to work three/four/six/seven/eight coach trains may be better tailored to some peak services.
A 323 would still be around twice the capacity of the average Pacer, for Lancashire services.
A 323 would still be around twice the capacity of the average Pacer, for Lancashire services.
Why are you comparing a 323 to a Pacer? Most of the lines being electrified are mainly 156 operated and quite a few of them see at least one strengthened peak service.
Liverpool - Wigan: mainly 156
Liverpool - Man Vic: mainly 142/150
Liverpool - Man Airport: mainly 156
Hazel Grove - Preston: mainly 150
Man Vic - Blackpool: mainly 150
Man Airport - Blackpool: 185
Liverpool SP - Blackpool: mainly 156
Would that idea involve all 43 323's being based in the Manchester area and operating alongside the 319's?
Talking of the West Midlands, is there any chance of LM ordering some 380s (available in three/four coach length) to replace their 323s (which could then head to Lancashire)? The 380s would have more in common with LM 350s (than the 323s), plus the flexibility of being able to work three/four/six/seven/eight coach trains may be better tailored to some peak services.
The add-on order of EMUs for LM/TPE is still in existence, with the bulk order for LM to replace 323s and some 350/1s, with the 350/1s transferring to TPE and the 323s to NT), the invitation to specify interest for the job (specified to be compatible with the existing 350s) was issued, and replies received (Siemens replied but don't know of anyone else) - currently this is sitting in the 'TBC' tray at DafT, we haven't heard anything in ages of it.
I suspect now it will be binned, and re-issued, but this time as an add-on LM order to a dedicated TPE EMU fleet, with enough add-on ordered to replace the remaining 321s and provide additional capacity on the long distance routes. The capacity in West Midlands would be enhanced when IEP comes online for the Northampton runs, cascading displaced 350/1s to cover 350/2s, packing some of them off to do the XC line.
A good opportunity will be wasted I suspect.
Orders for new LM 350's are urgently needed. Last time I checked, LM needed a extra 7 350's for extra capacity on Euston commuter services and to make up for the units lost to FTPE.
But 380's will be more suitable than 350's for a replacement for the 323's for resons I've already stated.
The ATW 150s do a lot more than just the Valley lines (Only about half or perhaps slightly less of their 150 fleet is used on the Valley Lines) and I'd hate to have to endure a Pacer on some of those other runs. ATW are not likely to receive any of the cascaded 165s (To replace the 158s you've sent to Northern) and assuming that it is the thirty six 165/1s that get cascaded over to the West Country then there aren't even enough units to replace FGWs' Sprinter fleet (twelve 153s, twenty five (Rising to at least 34 soon) 150s and fifteen 158s).Heres an idea.
LM order a mix of 3 and 4 car 380's to operate the Birmingham electric network including the Chase line.
When 165's and 166's move to Bristol after Themes Valley electrification, all of FGW and ATW 150's, 153, and 158's move to Northern and all pacers from FGW and Northern get dumped on the Valley lines replacing ATW 150's. Any left over pacers would be scrapped (at last).
The Welsh Government won't like that, but it will only be tempoary. The Valley lines are then electrified and all 323's along with the eight left over 319's move to an electrified Valley lines network. This will of course require platform extensions at some South Wales station in order to accommodate 4 car trains.
The ATW 150s do a lot more than just the Valley lines (Only about half or perhaps slightly less of their 150 fleet is used on the Valley Lines) and I'd hate to have to endure a Pacer on some of those other runs. ATW are not likely to receive any of the cascaded 165s (To replace the 158s you've sent to Northern) and assuming that it is the thirty six 165/1s that get cascaded over to the West Country then there aren't even enough units to replace FGWs' Sprinter fleet (twelve 153s, twenty five (Rising to at least 34 soon) 150s and fifteen 158s).
Plus it's already been strongly proven that Pacers are not at all suitable for
the Devon and Cornish branch lines, assuming that Pacers from Northern are what you would suggest for these branches as you seem to have overlooked them and the routes are not at all suited to Network Turbo operation.
There won't actually be any "left over" 319s either, I'd imagine. The initial maths in this thread hasn't considered a maintenance contingent for the Northern fleet (As far as I can tell it's just the in service requirement), or know the exact number of trains required for the Oxford/Newbury electrification.
The original notice stated "EMUs" to be "compatible with the existing rolling stock", ie the 350s. It will be up to Siemens if they offer 380s or 350s (they could offer 350s, add-on orders of the same product don't have to comply with the most current regs, the issue with the 350 being the obstructed view from the cab and current crashworthiness standards).
It would make sense for them to offer a mixed product, 23m EMUs with commuter arrangement for the West Midlands and 23m EMUs with express arrangement for the long distance WCML services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And yes they are urgently needed, in London, in Birmingham, on the WCML long-distance and Liverpool - Birmingham. People moan LM got a cosy deal with rolling stock replacement, but it's not a case of "it wasn't needed", the LM bid did a good job of confirming the prospective train orders.
The reason I said 380's instead of 350's is because there is a 3 car veriation of te 380 that will be needed because of the six car platform lengths on the cross city line.
They could make 3-car 350s if they wanted to, but having 3x23m as apposed to 3x20m is preferable. It depends on what Siemens want to offer, and how confident they are at making the 380s compatible with the existing 350s, will the fly-by-wire technology work with the cable-heavy 350s, and will the cabs couple together neatly and practically will be the deciding issues in what they offer.
The 350's won't need to be compatable with 380's. The 380's would only be used on the cross city line, Birmingham - Walsall - Rugeley, Aldrdige-Walsall- Birmingham-Wolverhampton and the New Steet-International suttle.
As Northern will use them on Airport and Blackpool runs plus serving a lot of university towns (Manchester, Liverpool, Salford, Bolton and Preston) I would hope they include quite a bit of luggage space.
....
Liverpool - Man Vic: mainly 142/150
....
There won't actually be any "left over" 319s either, I'd imagine. The initial maths in this thread hasn't considered a maintenance contingent for the Northern fleet (As far as I can tell it's just the in service requirement), or know the exact number of trains required for the Oxford/Newbury electrification (Not intended as a criticism of a very well thought out opening post, merely an observation).
If this is the case then I would do as so:317/1 12 Units.
319 86 Units.
321/4 13 Units.
365 40 Units.
377/5 23 Units.
If this is the case then I would do as so:
WARNING: some ideas may be controversial (especially NXEA)
- Class 377/5 - Firstly I would send these all to Southern and as part of this scheme I would electrify Oxted-Uckfield and the whole of the Oxted line can go to EMU operation. This would then allow their 171s to go to the Marshlink line and the rest can be converted back to Class 170s; then they can go to wherever they are needed - (eg 171s>170s>NXEA>displace 156>Northern>displace 150>displace 14x)
- Class 319 - Then all the 319s can go to Northern (any left over diesel stock can be cascaded elsewhere (eg EMT/FGW/ATW). This gives the possibility as Nym said for some more electrification
- Class 365 - These can go onto Thames Valley services once displaced by IEP
- Class 317/1 - personally I would send these to NXEA so all the 317s are together
- Class 321/4 - I would also send these to NXEA. Then I would move NXEA's 21 Class 360 units and they can go somewhere else (whether it'd be Heathrow, Thames Valley or Manchester-Scotland services etc). By giving NXEA the 317s and 321s while taking away the 360s, NXEA gain 4 units overall.
Stalybridge/Manchester Victoria-Liverpool Lime Street services are mainly 150/156, although 142s are used.
There won't actually be any "left over" 319s either, I'd imagine. The initial maths in this thread hasn't considered a maintenance contingent for the Northern fleet (As far as I can tell it's just the in service requirement), or know the exact number of trains required for the Oxford/Newbury electrification (Not intended as a criticism of a very well thought out opening post, merely an observation).
Orders for new LM 350's are urgently needed. Last time I checked, LM needed a extra 7 350's for extra capacity on Euston commuter services
and to make up for the units lost to FTPE.
And will 43 323's be enough to operate the Valley lines once the pacers have gone?
- Class 377/5 - Firstly I would send these all to Southern and as part of this scheme I would electrify Oxted-Uckfield and the whole of the Oxted line can go to EMU operation. This would then allow their 171s to go to the Marshlink line and the rest can be converted back to Class 170s; then they can go to wherever they are needed - (eg 171s>170s>NXEA>displace 156>Northern>displace 150>displace 14x)
I agree with you. In my "back of an envelope" plan I'd also try to replace the 313s on the Coastway service. These 313s would go to an electrified GOBLIN (could be maintained alongside the Moorgate 313s, especially with that service being operationally independent when Thameslink/IEP take over all the rest of the "Great Northern" services.