31X's-bound for West Yorkshire?

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Waverley125

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With the Transpennine electrification definitely requiring new EMUs for Leeds-Huddersfield & Leeds-York stoppers, as well as potentially Leeds-Selby (if the line to Hull is wired), there's a need for a cascade of EMUs to the north.

Given the 315s will soon be replaced on the shenfield metro by the new Crossrail stock, and the 313s, 314s, 317s & 318s are all due to be replaced in the not too distant future, is the best option to cascade them north? Obviously also to work Manchester-Liverpool and Manchester-Preston via Bolton services.

Also, given what would then be a stock surplus, would there be enough units to do some serious extra wiring in the north, such as the Caldervale & Harrogate lines, or Manchester-Liverpool via Warrington?
 
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aformeruser

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313s, 314s and 315s will be pretty much life expired by the time they are released by new units so would only provide a temporary solution.

Where have you got information from saying the 318s will be replaced by new units?
 

KingBBoogaloo

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I must stress that the following is just the assumption of those currently planning the services that will go electric when North Trans Pennine is electrified.

Firstly it is anticipated there will be no new trains. Secondly 365s are assumed to be taking over the TPE services and either 317s or 321s for the Northern services. The leasing companies are pushing this idea as once the new Thameslink stock arrives they will have a lot of EMUs going spare. However its early days and the only certainty is uncertainty.

On a different note, with the cascade of 319s likely to be to late for the completion of the Chat Moss electrification, the powers at be was to avoid the embarrassment of having some nice new knitting between Liverpool and Manchester but no EMUs for Northern to use on the route. The likely solution is eight or nine 317s heading north as a stop gap measure until the 319s become available.
 

WatcherZero

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Latest ive seen is there will be diesel under the wires for a full year after Liverpool-Manchester is finished because of late arrival of Thameslink. its not as bad as headline figure as training and vehicle certification would take several months anyway. I think priority seems to be Liverpool-Wigan terminators because the short route doesnt require a huge amount of stock.
 

Eagle

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Latest ive seen is there will be diesel under the wires for a year after Liverpool-Manchester is finished because of late arrival of Thameslink. its not as bad as headline figure as training and vehicle certification would take several months anyway.
And of course TPE's new 350s would start using the Chat Moss not long after electrification (from the Dec 2013 timetable).
 

sprinterguy

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I dearly hope that 313s or 315s aren't moved onto Transpennine local services after electrification for the reasons that have been set by others: The PEP based EMUs are all already 30-35 years old which means that by the time that Transpennine North electrification is completed, say in 5 years time, they'll all be at the very end of their lifespans. If the North does have to receive cascaded stock in order to fulfil its' requirement for electric trains then I would hope for something newer.

If the 365s are released from the Great Northern, by Thameslink or by Cambridge IEPs, then they could be moved to the GWML to allow Northern to take on all the 319s. This would presumably be enough trains to replace the eight 321s/322s in Yorkshire as well. Although of course there is a rumour that the 365s might become the chosen traction for TPE North services, although I would hope that TPE (in whatever form it takes by that point) would be able to order a fleet of bespoke new trains for these services and for the Manchester to Scotland services; five carriage 444-a-likes would be my choice.
 

Class377/5

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I must stress that the following is just the assumption of those currently planning the services that will go electric when North Trans Pennine is electrified.

Firstly it is anticipated there will be no new trains. Secondly 365s are assumed to be taking over the TPE services and either 317s or 321s for the Northern services. The leasing companies are pushing this idea as once the new Thameslink stock arrives they will have a lot of EMUs going spare. However its early days and the only certainty is uncertainty.

On a different note, with the cascade of 319s likely to be to late for the completion of the Chat Moss electrification, the powers at be was to avoid the embarrassment of having some nice new knitting between Liverpool and Manchester but no EMUs for Northern to use on the route. The likely solution is eight or nine 317s heading north as a stop gap measure until the 319s become available.
The 365 are staying with the new Thameslink franchise. The new Thameslink stock is only to run services through the Core. The 317 & 321 are to be released. With the 365 used to provide services to Kings Cross from Peterbrough/Cambridge. IEP may be used to completed replace the 365 but currently that's not 100%. Plan is for 32x 365 in use in peak out of a fleet of 41. Not enough free to justify moving a handful to TPE.

Modern Railways has a piece talking about the 319's. They may end up being released too late to make refurbishment worthwhile. But they make up the bulk of the freed up units this decade.

There are rumours of a major EMU order for the north in time for the completion of the TransPennie route. Would make sense as any units sent up wouldn't be used for too long before they needed replacing.

The 315 have been looked at for the Welsh Valleys electrification as a cheap way of improving services.
 

KingBBoogaloo

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And of course TPE's new 350s would start using the Chat Moss not long after electrification (from the Dec 2013 timetable).
Yes they will, but at best they will be a couple of months late for the December 2013 timetable change.

However the Rainhill section, the bit after the 350s will have truned north, due to be complited by December 2014 will be the bit Northern will have no EMUs for.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 365 are staying with the new Thameslink franchise. The new Thameslink stock is only to run services through the Core. The 317 & 321 are to be released. With the 365 used to provide services to Kings Cross from Peterbrough/Cambridge. IEP may be used to completed replace the 365 but currently that's not 100%. Plan is for 32x 365 in use in peak out of a fleet of 41. Not enough free to justify moving a handful to TPE.
Your right about the IEP, however the lack of power in the wires north of Cambridge could sink that idea.

As for Peterbourgh, unless something has changed in the last few days, then all the current GN services will be heading across the Thames. This is why Eversholt is pushing for the 365s to head north as the majority will be surplus after 2018.
 
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Class377/5

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Your right about the IEP, however the lack of power in the wires north of Cambridge could sink that idea.

As for Peterbourgh, unless something has changed in the last few days, then all the current GN services will be heading across the Thames. This is why Eversholt is pushing for the 365s to head north as the majority will be surplus after 2018.
Lack of wires? Er the 365 operate north of Cambridge using OHLE now, so not sure I get what you mean.

The plan post TLP for GN outer is;

2tph 12x 365 Kings Cross - Peterborough peak
2tph 4/8x 365 Kings Cross - Cambridge all day
1tph 12x IEP Kings Cross - Kings Lynn (spilt at Cambridge?) all day
1tph 4/8 IEP Kings Cross - Cambridge (Kings Lynn in the peak)

That's where I got my figures from. They have stated that not all GN trains can come from Thameslink.
 
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aformeruser

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The 365s going on to TPE are an educated guess from something The Guardian printed, The Guardian didn't specify 365s but suggested something which matches the description of 365s.

'All 319s to Northern' may not work. It is expected for the future franchises in the North to take a different shape. One suggestion is for TPE to disappear in to other franchises, another is for an East/West split again, while a further one if to form a Super North of England PTE to be franchisor for local services in the north.

Some of the 317s are in store and the first of the North West wires will be up before any 319s are ready. The two may not go together though, if another operator agrees a deal for extra EMUs.


The leasing companies are pushing this idea as once the new Thameslink stock arrives they will have a lot of EMUs going spare. However its early days and the only certainty is uncertainty.
The number of EMUs released from Thameslink going spare will be less than 10 after North West electrification, Thames Valley electrification and replacing Northern DMUs under the wires in the Manchester area. With the delays in the cascades those spare units may be needed as extra capacity somewhere due to growth between the intended cascade date and the actual cascade date.
 

Robbies

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I would have thought the 365's going to the GWML was a better idea as they are very similar to the Class 165/166's that do the route now.
 

Class377/5

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Presumably the OHLE in that section couldn't support an IEP train.
Ah, good point.

I would have thought the 365's going to the GWML was a better idea as they are very similar to the Class 165/166's that do the route now.
That was the rumour that went around. Aren't the 365 slightly bigger than than say the 317's or was it a case of thevGWML has more generous loading gauge historically?
 

swt_passenger

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Presumably the OHLE in that section couldn't support an IEP train.
That's right for now but won't be by 2017. The ECML part of the IEP project (section 20.3 in the NR CP4 enhancement plans) includes the necessary reinforcement of the power supply to Kings Lynn...
 

Whistler40145

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Obviously the OHLE north of Cambridge wasn't designed for power hungry trains & necessary upgrade is required. Is it the intention of Network Rail to carry out the necessary works?


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jopsuk

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As said above (you might not have seen it before you started your post), yes. Whether they will do anything to sort the formation that's recently been badly affected by the surrounding fenland drying out, who knows
 

Whistler40145

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It will always depend on whether sufficient capacity exists on the National Grid in that area, which would be out of Network Rail's hands.


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sprinterguy

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'All 319s to Northern' may not work. It is expected for the future franchises in the North to take a different shape. One suggestion is for TPE to disappear in to other franchises, another is for an East/West split again, while a further one if to form a Super North of England PTE to be franchisor for local services in the north.
That doesn't mean that all the 319s can't be allocated to what is currently the Northern area for North West and North TPE local services, whatever form the Northern franchise takes by that point.

The number of EMUs released from Thameslink going spare will be less than 10 after North West electrification, Thames Valley electrification and replacing Northern DMUs under the wires in the Manchester area. With the delays in the cascades those spare units may be needed as extra capacity somewhere due to growth between the intended cascade date and the actual cascade date.
Yes but there will be an awful lot of EMUs released by Thameslink and all up for grabs, even if they will all end up allocated to other operators which is what KingBBoogaloo is getting at. AFAIK the future allocations for all the released Thameslink EMUs aren't set in stone yet, or even fully decided.
 

pdq

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Do I gather from this thread that there's a distinct possibility that electrification will bring with it a degradation in rolling stock from pretty new, air conditioned stock to much older, non A/C stock for Manchester to Leeds and beyond? Please reassure me that I've got the wrong end of the stick here!
 

WatcherZero

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They will be replacing diesel stock with older electric stock if thats what you mean yes, though electrics normally have a 1/3rd longer lifespan.
 

YorkshireBear

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I'd like the D78 stock to take over Harrogate services.
Not that again... even harrogate chamber of commerce/council/whichever crackpot is in charge have admitted that 25KV AC is their first choice. And that this underground idea was just to make people listen. The D78 stock idea comes in only just ahead of buying new diesels for the line so i doubt it will ever happen. Thanks god.
 

anthony263

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Rail magazine did have a piece about the possibility of the class 315's being used on the Cardiff Valley lines if they are wired and the WG decided not to order brand new stock.

A good idea if Merseyrail were to order new stock perhaps something similar could be done like whats happening with the the new class 350's for London Midland & TPE that might be a good idea for the WG for say the WG to order new emu's for the Valleylines
 

jopsuk

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as for the 317/7s, for now they've not been reallocated- and it is of course possible that either the current Anglia franchisee will take them back on (when the clamour over over crowding becomes too loud and they realise it'll take longer than hoped to sort out fleet reliability issues, so they just have to take the hit on the cost) or the next franchise will make use of them.
 

aformeruser

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That doesn't mean that all the 319s can't be allocated to what is currently the Northern area for North West and North TPE local services, whatever form the Northern franchise takes by that point.
What I was getting at is there would be too many for just Manchester/Liverpool services even if you allow for the 323s leaving.

Incidentally Metro have had assurances from DfT that the 333s will not be cascaded away from the Leeds area.

The 323s leaving and being replaced by 4 car units could cause a problem for growing passenger numbers and platform lengths - some of the Hazel Grove-Preston services are already full doubled up Sprinters, so ideally there would be some 6 car EMU services between Manchester, Bolton and Preston at peak times.

Yes but there will be an awful lot of EMUs released by Thameslink and all up for grabs, even if they will all end up allocated to other operators which is what KingBBoogaloo is getting at. AFAIK the future allocations for all the released Thameslink EMUs aren't set in stone yet, or even fully decided.
Yes it's similar to the 150 cascade at the moment. FGW and Northern were always supposed to be on the receiving end but FGW got the LO 150s which were originally intended for Northern and Northern got some of the LM 150s that were originally intended for FGW. There was also an extra party added in as EMT got 4 extra trains as a direct result of the 150 cascade.

The 319 cascade could result in ATW receiving 143s from FGW or LM receiving some of the 323s from Northern.

The one thing that is unclear is the FCC 377s. Southern have ordered extra units instead of these for extra capacity, people are suggesting the 377s will replace the 313s, but that's speculation. They could, for instance, replace the 323s at Northern and LM receive the 323s - the 377s having SDO won't result in the platform length problem working in double that I mentioned above.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A good idea if Merseyrail were to order new stock perhaps something similar could be done like whats happening with the the new class 350's for London Midland & TPE that might be a good idea for the WG for say the WG to order new emu's for the Valleylines
Apart from Merseyrail would be DC and Valley Lines would be AC if electrified, so it would finish up more like the 450 order, where some became 350/1s.

The Merseyrail order will be around 200 vehicles so is large enough to be placed on it's own, unlike the LM and TPE orders.
 

Class377/5

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The one thing that is unclear is the FCC 377s. Southern have ordered extra units instead of these for extra capacity, people are suggesting the 377s will replace the 313s, but that's speculation. They could, for instance, replace the 323s at Northern and LM receive the 323s - the 377s having SDO won't result in the platform length problem working in double that I mentioned above.

Apart from Merseyrail would be DC and Valley Lines would be AC if electrified, so it would finish up more like the 450 order, where some became 350/1s.

The Merseyrail order will be around 200 vehicles so is large enough to be placed on it's own, unlike the LM and TPE orders.
The 377/5 are mostly spoken for. The need for more dual voltage units to run the Milton Keynes - Croydon services to 8 car will see the units future secure. Currently 5 units are need but if it doubles to 2tph and increases to 8 cars, you'd need about 16 units for the service plus a few spares. Apart from platform extensions on the WLL stations, 8 cars is do-able today if they had the rolling stock.

Currently it's rumoured the 313 will go once the 377/5 return to 'Southern'. The 377/6 will take over the duties the 377/3 & /5 were to provide (10 car railway) with the three car units replacing the 313. Note that by the time the 377/5 are freed, the Thameslink units will start releasing 377 units within Southern meaning there's going to be more freed up units anyway.

Merseyrail are looking at dual voltage stock for their hoped/planned service extensions expctd to take place within the replacement rolling stocks lifetime. I'm sure a longer term order for a new fleet can be done if the Valleys order was combined, maybe with the Northern EMU order added in.
 
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