50 years of BR's Double-Arrow logo

[Springs Branch]

Next month, according to this website, will be the 50th anniversary of the introduction of that well-known British Rail logo.

The Double Arrows has to be a design classic and one of the most durable corporate logos of modern times.

I wonder what would have happened if BR had remained in existence (or was re-born) as a national rail operation. Would the logo:-

• Have been refreshed and "re-imagined" by the branding / marketing gurus and graphic designers to make it "modern" - possibly more than once by now, and probably becoming some weak, second-rate shadow of the original in the process?
• Have been left alone in essentially its original form - like the London Transport roundel, which is still still the "trademark" for all things TfL?

Of course we'll never know what might have been, but 50 years and it's still going strong outside rail stations, on traffic signs and ticket stock (and slightly modified on the National Rail website etc.).

 

[jon0844]

Because of the use on road signs, I'd hope the logo isn't changed simply because it's easily recognised. Not only that but who would pay for new signs or stickers to update the logo?

 

[kermit]

Because of the use on road signs, I'd hope the logo isn't changed simply because it's easily recognised. Not only that but who would pay for new signs or stickers to update the logo?

One of the things that astonishes me about the endless waves of issuing and re-issuing privatisation franchises has been the apparently limitless appetite to repaint everything, reclothe staff and replace signage. The unnecessary cost must have been immense, but all riding for free on the back, as the OP states, of a massively successful strong brand image of the BR logo.

More thievery from the corporate leeches of the privatisation scam. Do they pay a licensing fee for the endless benefit they derive from it? Nah.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Have you seen the new version for the Borders Railway?

 

[bishdunster]

Given the amount of track rationalisation over the last 50 years im surprised the logo hasn't been amended to a red background with a single white line running across it !

 

[sprinterguy]

Sectorisation began the process of disassembling the BR corporate image, although it was only really with the introduction of the “second round” of sector identities in the 1989 to 1991 period that the double arrow logo began to be marginalised: The Intercity “swallow” livery didn’t feature the logo at all, and the new Regional Railways identity reduced it to a small addition to the “REGIONAL RAILWAYS” insignia, although both continued to incorporate the double arrow in their published corporate and promotional material.

I strongly suspect that if not for privatisation, then BR would have continued to “refresh” it’s image; in the way that Intercity Executive gave way to Swallow with the introduction of the ECML electrics and Provincial Services gave way to Regional Railways; every 8 – 10 years or so, as batches of rolling stock came up for refurbishment or major fleet renewals and service enhancements took place. As such, I would have expected the next update to the BR identity to have occurred in the mid to late nineties (when the next major refurbishment of the mark 3 stock was expected to take place), contemporary with the explosion of privatised operator liveries that we actually experienced.

I therefore imagine that use of the double arrow symbol in the present day would have been little different to what we actually see, minus the cornucopia of different TOC identities: The double arrow logo would continue to see widespread use identifying stations both in terms of physical signage and map symbols, and would also feature prominently on any cross-industry corporate or promotional material, for example railcard renewal forms and advertising posters. However the trains themselves would carry distinct sector identities probably devoid of the double arrow logo, and would use their own separate logos for sector specific advertising and products.

As a related aside, I wouldn’t have been at all surprised if British Rail had come up with a set of distinct logos to identify major stations very similar to those developed by Railtrack in 1999. That struck me as a very “British Rail” sort of touch:
http://designtaxi.com/news/357722/B...ols-That-Represent-UK-s-Major-Metro-Stations/

 

[Howardh]

Isn't the London Underground sign the world's most recognisable? Think I saw a survey some years ago, but in the US I think they put a certain burger joint top !

 

[Gareth]

I thought it was the British Rail symbol, followed by the London Underground roundel. Someone told be that the GMPTE/TfGM symbol is fairly high up for public transport symbols. It's longevity, having changed little since it's debut in 1974 makes this credible, though I doubt it's widely recognised outside the area. Speaking of which, Merseyside's '69' swirl was a design classic, replaced by the much more generic yellow 'M' in 1988. It was much more of a design classic, I think.

 

[HowardGWR]

Because of the use on road signs, I'd hope the logo isn't changed simply because it's easily recognised. Not only that but who would pay for new signs or stickers to update the logo?

I think there is a missing comma there (after 'changed').
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The advantage of both LU and BR symbols, is that they can be produced as a shape rather than painted on something, like the road Stop sign. So if it is covered in snow, you still recognise it.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, a missing comma does somewhat change things!

 

[MotCO]

The double arrow symbol was also used on the Sealink ferries, but was sometimes reversed. One suggestion I have heard is that the upper line on the funnel point in the direction of travel, so that the symbol is the right way round on the starboard side, but reversed on the port side. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[30907]

A quick check of Google Images confirms this.

 

[DownSouth]

The double arrow symbol was also used on the Sealink ferries, but was sometimes reversed. One suggestion I have heard is that the upper line on the funnel point in the direction of travel, so that the symbol is the right way round on the starboard side, but reversed on the port side. Can anyone confirm this?

This would be an adaptation of the convention for painting or printing a flag on a ship or an aircraft, where the starboard side has the flag 'reversed' so it appears in the same orientation as if it were flying from a mast at the front.

This applies to the use of the Union Flag (even though it would require close inspection to tell if it has been reversed) and also to other national flags which are far more obviously unidirectional - the US Air Force respects the convention even on the most famous aircraft in the world:

Isn't the London Underground sign the world's most recognisable? Think I saw a survey some years ago, but in the US I think they put a certain burger joint top !

I would be very surprised if either the BR or Underground emblems were among the world's most recognised brands - maybe the survey you read was for Britain only?

On a global level there is no way that a public transport system operating only in Britain would be able to match the brand recognition of Coca-Cola, McDonald's, Apple, Google, Nike, Adidas, Shell, Mercedes-Benz, BMW or the Olympic rings - all brands which operate all around the world.

 

[3141]

One of the things that astonishes me about the endless waves of issuing and re-issuing privatisation franchises has been the apparently limitless appetite to repaint everything, reclothe staff and replace signage. The unnecessary cost must have been immense, but all riding for free on the back, as the OP states[/B][/I], of a massively successful strong brand image of the BR logo.

More thievery from the corporate leeches of the privatisation scam. Do they pay a licensing fee for the endless benefit they derive from it? Nah.

I can't quite see where the OP says that.

Actually I'd guess that more people than not know where the local railway station is and don't need the BR logo. It's recognisable through words such as "station" on road signs and those pairs of long shiny metal strips that most stations seem to have.

 

[sadgit]

Actually I'd guess that more people than not know where the local railway station is and don't need the BR logo. It's recognisable through words such as "station" on road signs and those pairs of long shiny metal strips that most stations seem to have.

If the logo isn't needed and is now not recognisable then I'd question why it is still everywhere given that the organisation it is the logo for was dissolved 20 years ago and the TOCs would probably much rather put their own brands in its place.

The real answer is that the double arrows symbol is instantly recognisable, and to most people it is shorthand for "this here is a national rail station". ATOC would not bother licensing it for their own uses if it served no purpose. (If anything I would argue that too little use is made of it.)

 

[najaB]

Actually I'd guess that more people than not know where the local railway station is and don't need the BR logo. It's recognisable through words such as "station" on road signs

I know where my local station is, but I've no idea where to find the station in, for example, Gloucester. And it's a lot easier to spot the double-arrow symbol on a road sign than it is to look for 'Station Road'.

(FYI - Gloucester station is on Brunton Way, there is no station on Station Road.)

 

[Clip]

The double arrow symbol was also used on the Sealink ferries, but was sometimes reversed. One suggestion I have heard is that the upper line on the funnel point in the direction of travel, so that the symbol is the right way round on the starboard side, but reversed on the port side. Can anyone confirm this?

Like this

 

[BritishRail83]

One of the things that astonishes me about the endless waves of issuing and re-issuing privatisation franchises has been the apparently limitless appetite to repaint everything, reclothe staff and replace signage. The unnecessary cost must have been immense, but all riding for free on the back, as the OP states, of a massively successful strong brand image of the BR logo.

More thievery from the corporate leeches of the privatisation scam. Do they pay a licensing fee for the endless benefit they derive from it? Nah.

I couldn't agree more Kermit. Some long serving staff must have a wardrobe full of old uniform, if it hasn't gone on ebay already?

 

[LLivery]

I know where my local station is, but I've no idea where to find the station in, for example, Gloucester. And it's a lot easier to spot the double-arrow symbol on a road sign than it is to look for 'Station Road'.

(FYI - Gloucester station is on Brunton Way, there is no station on Station Road.)

And in Finedon (Northamptonshire) Station Road no longer has a station!

The double-arrow is one of, if not the most known symbol in the country and it really does bug me that TfL have got rid of it for their LO roundel.

Long live the double-arrow!

 

[kermit]

I can't quite see where the OP says that.

Actually I'd guess that more people than not know where the local railway station is and don't need the BR logo. It's recognisable through words such as "station" on road signs and those pairs of long shiny metal strips that most stations seem to have.

The OP says that the brand image is massively strong. I added the bit about the privateer companies riding on the back of that strong logo for free.

And of course the signs are not primarily intended for people who already know where the railway station is, but for travellers trying to find their way. That's a bit like saying there's no point putting signs for the Leicester exit on the M1 because all the Leicester folk know where it is!

 

[sarahj]

I've been on the railway now 7 years and will having my 3rd uniform next year. White with green stripes, to green and soon grey. Still have some mk1 (for me) uniform floating around somewhere.

 

[cjmillsnun]

And in Finedon (Northamptonshire) Station Road no longer has a station!

The double-arrow is one of, if not the most known symbol in the country and it really does bug me that TfL have got rid of it for their LO roundel.

Long live the double-arrow!

TBF the roundel is also a very well known symbol. In fact I would say it is more well known in London than the double arrow.

 

[yorksrob]

And of course the signs are not primarily intended for people who already know where the railway station is, but for travellers trying to find their way. That's a bit like saying there's no point putting signs for the Leicester exit on the M1 because all the Leicester folk know where it is!

Indeed. The fact that the symbol is quite bold, simple and instantly recognisable makes it ideal for road signs, particularly as a lot of "station road's" no longer have a station on them.

 

[Michael.Y]

There are three reasons that the Sealink logo is reversed.

1) So it isn't the BR logo.

2) So it forms an S when looked at.

3) Because it describes the permitted movement of ships in sealanes. When moving in opposite directions, you must pass a ship to its port side, thus being the opposite of rail (and road) movements where you pass a vehicle on its right side. The BR logo has the same principle - the upper arrow pointing right, the lower arrow pointing left.

 

[table38]

Although the funnel arrows always had the top arrow pointing forwards, so "BR" on the starboard and "Sealink" on the port side.

Pictures from here: http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/BR7_Dover_Folkestone.html

 

[Michael.Y]

Indeed, as mentioned upthread that's to do with the reversal of flags / symbols principle, that you have your correct symbol on the side facing forwards, if you see what I mean. (if that funnel was a flag, the hoist would be at the front and the fly at the back, hence the need for the symbol to be the right way round on the port side of the funnel.) I expect there were Sealink flags flown by the ferries in some capacity...

 

[Springs Branch]

The reversed arrows makes sense on funnels of actual ships (in line with the flags rule), but which version was used for static Sealink applications - logos on printed publicity material, corporate letterheads etc? I seem to recall the odd Sealink travel poster being displayed in railway stations which used the reversed arrows in print with the Sealink name.


On the subject of directionality, wasn't there a bit of a flap (as they said in those days) when one of the previous versions of the British Railways logo was first applied to steam engines?
This was either the "Lion on a Unicycle", or the "Ferret and Dartboard" - I can't remember where I read the story.

Unlike many diesel & electric locos and all multiple units, steam engines had one principle direction of travel (even tank engines) and the logo was applied to tenders and side-tanks reversed on one side, so the lion would face forward travelling in the normal direction.

The problem was that particular design was considered a corporate Coat of Arms, issued by the College of Arms (or some similar archaic institution) and it was almost a hanging offence to alter or modify the official design in any way.
Apparently the incorrectly-applied logos on tenders etc had to be replaced, meaning that 50% of lions were then looking backwards.

 

[DownSouth]

If it was the unicycling lion, it makes sense to swap the direction of the lion and the issuing organisation should have issued both variants in the first case.

If the logo had two animals with one facing the other, not swapping it would have been sensible.

Good thing it's not a kangaroo or emu that they chose to ride the BR unicycle, these are chosen for the Australian coat of arms specifically because they are animals which can not physically capable of moving backwards.

 

[sprinterguy]

The problem was that particular design was considered a corporate Coat of Arms, issued by the College of Arms (or some similar archaic institution) and it was almost a hanging offence to alter or modify the official design in any way.

Apparently the incorrectly-applied logos on tenders etc had to be replaced, meaning that 50% of lions were then looking backwards.

Just as confirmation, it was the later "ferret and dartboard" coat of arms that was subject to this restriction.

 

[Cumbrian]

Certainly a very recognisable logo.

I could never decide if it was coming or going