5x Class 153 conversion to bike and baggage vans for Scotrail

[Bletchleyite]

The day has almost arrived. Let's assume for a minute they're a success with users, albeit it noisy and uncomfortable. 153's will now be a challenge to keep running as advertised - why do HSTs spring to mind?

What follows when it's accepted they're clapped out, as they surely will be in 10 years time? Lots of cycles or skis to go in a new unit developed from the experience about to be gained? Fun and games ahead operationally and commercially.

If the concept works I'd hope any new order includes a similar vehicle. I'm sure Stadler could have a very good go.

Yes, OK, that would be a microfleet, but these routes have very specific needs (e.g. a panoramic First Class coach would sell very well, and a bar area would do well, too) and Stadler are good at microfleets.

I also hope they have a "man and van" number to hand at both ends. People will be relying on the cycle space, so if it fails they will need an alternative.

 

[Killingworth]

If the concept works I'd hope any new order includes a similar vehicle. I'm sure Stadler could have a very good go.

Yes, OK, that would be a microfleet, but these routes have very specific needs (e.g. a panoramic First Class coach would sell very well, and a bar area would do well, too) and Stadler are good at microfleets.

I also hope they have a "man and van" number to hand at both ends. People will be relying on the cycle space, so if it fails they will need an alternative.

Those were the days! Not too practical with today's operational constraints.

 

[Meerkat]

What follows when it's accepted they're clapped out, as they surely will be in 10 years time? Lots of cycles or skis to go in a new unit developed from the experience about to be gained? Fun and games ahead operationally and commercially.

It’s a good experiment. If it fails then it was low bother, if it sells well then the next trains can be built with similar facilities.
Looking at the decarbonisation map there are tourist lines in Scotland, Wales and England that will need specific stock built (hydrogen maybe). As they will be almost exclusively for such lines a special design could be developed with big windows, Tourist First, catering, and bike facilities.

 

[trebor79]

The engine is under the seating area

Where's the facepalm emoji when you need one!

If the concept works I'd hope any new order includes a similar vehicle. I'm sure Stadler could have a very good go.

Yes, OK, that would be a microfleet, but these routes have very specific needs (e.g. a panoramic First Class coach would sell very well, and a bar area would do well, too) and Stadler are good at microfleets.

Not a bad shout with Stadler. In fact given GA arguably have far too many 755's than they need there could be a bit of a reshuffle. A 4-car with all the seats stripped out of one of them would provide plenty of room for bikes, comfy seats for the punters and they have nice large windows to enjoy the scenery. Level boarding and platform/door bridges make it easy to get bikes on and off too.
And a nice peaceful environment in which to sit too. Lovely.

 

[Meerkat]

I also hope they have a "man and van" number to hand at both ends. People will be relying on the cycle space, so if it fails they will need an alternative.

The thing they really need is portable bike racks stored somewhere. A man and van is presumably not impossible at short notice even in the highlands, but tourists won’t want their expensive machines just flung in the back of a Transit and thrashed round the country roads!

 

[Neptune]

Where's the facepalm emoji when you need one!

The problem is that you can’t reverse where the bike area is as the door access at the number 2 end is limited due to the cab intruding and the tight circulation area on the opposite side. You would never get a tandem on.

 

[trebor79]

The problem is that you can’t reverse where the bike area is as the door access at the number 2 end is limited due to the cab intruding and the tight circulation area on the opposite side. You would never get a tandem on.

Ah yes. I've seen people get buggies and large suitcases wedged there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah yes. I've seen people get buggies and large suitcases wedged there.

The old bike space was at that end, wasn't it? It was indeed quite difficult to get on and off, and a tandem would have been very awkward. A lot of the time bikes ended up in the wheelchair space at the other end instead.

 

[Neptune]

The old bike space was at that end, wasn't it? It was indeed quite difficult to get on and off, and a tandem would have been very awkward. A lot of the time bikes ended up in the wheelchair space at the other end instead.

Yes it was a real struggle for bikes and buggies although I used to redirect buggies as there was nowhere for them to go at that end. Either fold it down or use the other end if unoccupied.

 

[trebor79]

The old bike space was at that end, wasn't it? It was indeed quite difficult to get on and off, and a tandem would have been very awkward. A lot of the time bikes ended up in the wheelchair space at the other end instead.

Yes. I always thought it was a stupid design because without that bulkhead there the cab protrusion would have been far less of an issue. But I guess it was all done at the cheapest possible price when the second cabs were put in, and moving the seats etc around as part of the conversion would have cost more money.

 

[Neptune]

Yes. I always thought it was a stupid design because without that bulkhead there the cab protrusion would have been far less of an issue. But I guess it was all done at the cheapest possible price when the second cabs were put in, and moving the seats etc around as part of the conversion would have cost more money.

I may be wrong but I’m sure the bulkhead opposite the cab is actually part of the structure so not recommended to remove it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. I always thought it was a stupid design because without that bulkhead there the cab protrusion would have been far less of an issue. But I guess it was all done at the cheapest possible price when the second cabs were put in, and moving the seats etc around as part of the conversion would have cost more money.

The cab protrusion was an additional modification - it wasn't originally there so the cabs were impossibly cramped. If I recall correctly, anyway.

 

[snookertam]

The current plan which may change is the 10.33 will convey a class 153 to Oban and back. The 16.33 will detach the 153 at Oban, overnight there and return south on the 05.20 ex Oban. This will then run to Eastfield depot after arrival at Queen St, be fuelled and serviced then form the next day's 10.33 Oban and return.

This is good as well - one of the services they want to provide as part of the ‘Highland Explorer’ concept will have next to nobody on it. Can tell it’s an operational move to save space at Eastfield overnight but slightly undermines the exercise, no?

I expect by the time we see these units on the Fort William and Far North lines this concept will have been binned.

Does this come from the daft ‘designated tourist route’ idea that Transport Scotland had years back? It’s great to have visitors to the country and as very much a city person I love visiting the Highlands, but can we stop the disney-fication of everything? Central Edinburgh is bad enough.

 

[Meerkat]

This is good as well - one of the services they want to provide as part of the ‘Highland Explorer’ concept will have next to nobody on it. Can tell it’s an operational move to save space at Eastfield overnight but slightly undermines the exercise, no?

I expect by the time we see these units on the Fort William and Far North lines this concept will have been binned.

Does this come from the daft ‘designated tourist route’ idea that Transport Scotland had years back? It’s great to have visitors to the country and as very much a city person I love visiting the Highlands, but can we stop the disney-fication of everything? Central Edinburgh is bad enough.

Without tourists these services are utter basket cases and would be better replaced with road coaches

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Without tourists these services are utter basket cases and would be better replaced with road coaches

I really dislike the idea that the people of the Highlands don't deserve a good standard of rail service without it being provided primarily for tourists. We've accepted for decades that the value of these services to communities is worth the subsidies provided and 9 months of the year locals outnumber the tourists. From that perspective the Highland Explorer concept is pretty ridiculous. It's charging a premium rate for things that absolutely don't deserve a premium and would otherwise be free. I'm sure 99% of the locals on the route would far rather have an extra passenger coach or some form of catering.

It's just another ScotGov policy that treats the Highlands like a tourist resort, rather than a place where people live and work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there a problem with the service for the locals? I haven't come across it being full and standing, and it does have a trolley service.

 

[trebor79]

I really dislike the idea that the people of the Highlands don't deserve a good standard of rail service without it being provided primarily for tourists. We've accepted for decades that the value of these services to communities is worth the subsidies provided and 9 months of the year locals outnumber the tourists. From that perspective the Highland Explorer concept is pretty ridiculous. It's charging a premium rate for things that absolutely don't deserve a premium and would otherwise be free. I'm sure 99% of the locals on the route would far rather have an extra passenger coach or some form of catering.

It's just another ScotGov policy that treats the Highlands like a tourist resort, rather than a place where people live and work.

Can't see how hooking a bike trailer onto the trains disadvantages the locals at all. And it doesn't preclude some kind of catering offer either.

 

[Meerkat]

I really dislike the idea that the people of the Highlands don't deserve a good standard of rail service without it being provided primarily for tourists.

Why do they deserve a good standard RAIL service?
They may deserve a transport service but the coach is quicker isn’t it? And would be much much cheaper to subsidise.

 

[GLC]

If cycle reservations are mandatory, as it says they are, exactly how can that arise? (It can't).

I’m assuming (perhaps unwisely), that previous bookings will be asked to vacate/upgrade if required

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m assuming (perhaps unwisely), that previous bookings will be asked to vacate/upgrade if required

That would be called "bait and switch" and is an offence.

 

[najaB]

They may deserve a transport service but the coach is quicker isn’t it? And would be much much cheaper to subsidise.

Not necessarily in the depths of winter. Nor in the autumn when the roads are closed by landslips.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Is there a problem with the service for the locals? I haven't come across it being full and standing, and it does have a trolley service.

Can't see how hooking a bike trailer onto the trains disadvantages the locals at all. And it doesn't preclude some kind of catering offer either.

I think it's fair to say a lot of locals aren't entirely satisfied. While there's theoretically a trolley, even before Covid it couldn't be relied upon and I'm not sure if it's being offered at all right now. It's also a long journey on visibly old and tired trains. The area around Fort William and Oban especially is already pretty strained by tourism too and there's a general feeling that the needs of tourists are being prioritised over the needs of the local population.

The trains themselves aren't likely to bother anyone but the whole 'Highland Explorer' concept with premium fares for standard seats really won't go down too well. Especially off-season where the train can be full with locals, and people will be choosing between standing and not social distancing or paying extra for the tourist seats.

Why do they deserve a good standard RAIL service?
They may deserve a transport service but the coach is quicker isn’t it? And would be much much cheaper to subsidise.

In real terms the coach is rarely quicker, less comfortable or convenient and doesn't serve all the communities and areas served by the railway. In the winter or poor weather it's also an awful lot less reliable.

 

[30907]

This is good as well - one of the services they want to provide as part of the ‘Highland Explorer’ concept will have next to nobody on it. Can tell it’s an operational move to save space at Eastfield overnight but slightly undermines the exercise, no?

Would the 2037 up be busier?

 

[scotraildriver]

Would the 2037 up be busier?

Not likely. Currently carries less than 10 passengers, but until the timetable changes and the trains run separately there's not really any other option.

 

[John Bishop]

It’s a pity the same effort couldn’t go into solving the bike problem on the HML!

 

[najaB]

It’s a pity the same effort couldn’t go into solving the bike problem on the HML!

I suspect that will be coming soon, they literally have a built-in solution in the HSTs!

 

[ld0595]

I suspect that will be coming soon, they literally have a built-in solution in the HSTs!

It better be coming soon. Cycle provision on HSTs is very poor. A wasted opportunity so far.

 

[fgwrich]

I suspect that will be coming soon, they literally have a built-in solution in the HSTs!

I still feel they should have taken the TGS's though. Hopefully they'll start opening up the PC Van space instead.

 

[John Bishop]

I suspect that will be coming soon, they literally have a built-in solution in the HSTs!

Yeah but that’s another summer gone. Realistically we are looking at next summer before there’s a robust/ fit for purpose solution in place.

 

[haggishunter]

Is there a problem with the service for the locals? I haven't come across it being full and standing, and it does have a trolley service.

I've come across it full to the point of barely being able to board a train at Tyndrum or Crianlarich heading South in summer - forget the trolley, even if it is onboard somewhere it is not coming to you and you most definitely aren't getting to it on such trains. A big plus of the 153's (unless I've missed something) is an extra toilet for not many more seats, frequently on summer services absurd queues for the toilets occur, 1 per two over full 156 coaches just doesn't cut it and they frequently don't last the full trip on busy services!

The basic concept behind the 153 refurb is sound, their introduction is welcome, the specifics of operation and ticketing may need changed, but the big change that is needed is the one to the timetable to allow these 153s to also head to Fort William.

Anyone suggesting coaches as an alternative to the WHL, try driving the A82 Loch Lomondside in the height of summer or bad weather in winter!