Remember that for Oban, our next level suppliers of goods and services are in Glasgow : that's where our specialist hospitals are, for example. So there is an AYR market. For Fort William most of these journeys are to Inverness, there is much less non-tourist business.
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5x Class 153 conversion to bike and baggage vans for Scotrail
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adrock1976
Established Member
Could you be kind enough to mention exactly what AYR is please, as I have never heard of that?
It does seem unlikely to be linked to the seaside town south of the Clyde that gave its name to the county of Ayrshire.
All Year 'Round, I imagine.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Completely agreed. My sole criticism of the idea relates to the purpose of the "sham First Class" seating - reserve those seats for those storing cycles there and the idea is spot-on. If First Class is desirable - and I can entirely see why it is - put proper 2+1 First Class in the 156s.
No. As they dont solely operate on the WHL and are used frequently on commuter services.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm sure they'd love it when declassified, but if it'd cause a capacity issue then having a dedicated pool for the scenic lines is hardly a difficult idea.
I very much doubt ScotRail is going to have a small number of 156s lying around doing nothing except for infrequent WHL services.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Why would they be lying around? You would have the correct number to operate those services, which granted are infrequent but are also long (about 3 hours end to end if I recall). They aren't left "lying around".
Given the commitment to electrify as much of the suburban network as possible over the next few years, they'll probably have little other use for the 156s in reasonably short order.
adrock1976
Established Member
What's happened to the 156s that do not have the RETB equipment fitted?
Those were the ones that could not run on the West Highland, but could run elsewhere.
Those were the ones that could not run on the West Highland, but could run elsewhere.
Nothing, but maintenance requirements sees RETB ones venture elsewhere also.
I have seen written somewhere (Wikipedia?) that the RETB 156 pool is somewhat limited to something like 10-14 but can't find it now. Certainly the 156s don't mix noticeably between WHL and GSW, so pretty sure it is a relatively small captive pool.
Given free choice I would head for the 156 rather than the 153, so paying extra for standard seating on the latter completely lacks appeal.
The additional bike spaces are very welcome but I can't help thinking that they need to cover FTW and offer an evening southbound turn.
ScotRail could really capitalise on the tourist appeal of the WHL: proper first class seating, a resilient refreshment service and how about a City Sightseeing style recorded tour guide?
Given free choice I would head for the 156 rather than the 153, so paying extra for standard seating on the latter completely lacks appeal.
The additional bike spaces are very welcome but I can't help thinking that they need to cover FTW and offer an evening southbound turn.
ScotRail could really capitalise on the tourist appeal of the WHL: proper first class seating, a resilient refreshment service and how about a City Sightseeing style recorded tour guide?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Hopefully when it comes to time for new stock (which as the 156s are some of the oldest stock running in the UK now) they will consider something more custom designed in that regard. A fortune could be made of quality tourist provision, not just a tenner each way for a downgraded seat in a rattletrap that smells of fish*.
* Not actual fish; I seem to recall reading that that odd niff you get in 153s is from the insulation around the exhaust which passes through the saloon rather than out of the ends as per other 15x.
Highlandspring
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The whole ScotRail 156 fleet is fitted with the required aerials and wiring harnesses so all it takes to change a non-fitted cab to a fitted cab is to mount the CDR on the rack and plug it in, which is a 5 minute job. The limiting factor is really the number of CDRs in circulation.
DanNCL
Established Member
The RETB fitted 156s regularly make it to Newcastle on the diagrams that inter work between the GSW and the Tyne Valley, arguably just as frequently as the non RETB ones do, so they’re not kept on the WHL.
47827
Member
It's worth noting (although I'm not an expert on the actual figures), even if most services are just 2 car after splitting at Crianlarich, or as separate trains, the West Highland routes tie up a good amount of stock for such sparse service levels. The longest run being Glasgow to Mallaig so the units cannot do much at all. Probably just as well the 153s are only going Oban currently as it would be particularly painful to recover one off the Mallaig line to get home to Glasgow.
snookertam
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The Oban route still performs a service for the community there and in the islands, and to refer to it as a basket case is a bit extreme. Six weekday trains operate on the route all year round. The journey time is comparable to the bus. Either way the question of replacing the rail service with buses in the West Highlands, regardless of whether it makes any money or not, is a non starter.
I've come across it full to the point of barely being able to board a train at Tyndrum or Crianlarich heading South in summer - forget the trolley, even if it is onboard somewhere it is not coming to you and you most definitely aren't getting to it on such trains. A big plus of the 153's (unless I've missed something) is an extra toilet for not many more seats, frequently on summer services absurd queues for the toilets occur, 1 per two over full 156 coaches just doesn't cut it and they frequently don't last the full trip on busy services!
The basic concept behind the 153 refurb is sound, their introduction is welcome, the specifics of operation and ticketing may need changed, but the big change that is needed is the one to the timetable to allow these 153s to also head to Fort William.
Anyone suggesting coaches as an alternative to the WHL, try driving the A82 Loch Lomondside in the height of summer or bad weather in winter!
Exactly, it’s an incredible statement.
A rebuild of the depot at Fort William would be useful IMO, the 153s could be allocated to it, the 156s could be refuelled there.
Any future bespoke fleet (if such a thing were to happen) could be allocated and looked after there too. It would allow the service to become much more Highlands orientated.
Any future bespoke fleet (if such a thing were to happen) could be allocated and looked after there too. It would allow the service to become much more Highlands orientated.
Journeyman
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They did have a few seats taken out, yes, but that was before refurbishment, so I don't know if that distinction remains.
Yes, 4 seats at the inner ends of both coaches have luggage racks in their place. There was also a few non RETB ones with this layout but seats were refitted at the recent refurbishment.
paul1609
Established Member
The real reason that there is no AYR market from Fort William is that the train takes circa 3 hrs 50mins for a journey that takes 2 hrs 30ish by car or is scheduled to take 3 hrs 10 on the city link bus.
The rail route is an in direct 122 miles compared to 109 miles via the A82, Erskine Bridge and M8. The opening of the Balluchulish Bridge in 1975 cut the road journey along the A82 by 16 miles.
Having worked and lived in Garelochhead for some years I'm a great fan of the West Highland Line but in terms of public money well spent the maintenance of 180 miles of railway line to serve populations of 15000 (Fort William) and 8500 (Oban) must be high in the Basket Case top 10.
I can't help but think that if the "beeching" case for retention was being made now the optimum value for money case would be a 80 mile branch line from Dunblane to Oban with a connecting integrated coach service from Crianlarich Low Level to Mallaig via Fort William.
I we are at an "It is what it is scenario" it makes perfect sense to me that the tourist market is prioritised over the AYR market and the 153 bike vans are a good initiative.
Thing is, you don't have to prioritise the tourist market over the local population, as the 153 project demonstrates. They represent additional capacity that can be added or removed in and out of season without negatively impacting on the basic service provision.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That I guess is the advantage of being able to acquire rolling stock at close to scrap value, because otherwise it was going in the bin.
They have a standard (non-universally-accessible) toilet fitted, yes.
Thanks
It’s a good cost effective solution the more I think about it.
more bike capacity; more toilets; more capacity in general
I can assure you all that the cushions on the Explorer are an order of magnitude thicker and softer than those on the 156. You sink into them rather than perching on them. Pic taken today in Oban.(there were 6 bikes I think)The thickness can be best seen along the edge of the LH seat.
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