Abortion discussion

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Up_Tilt_390

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I was having a discussion earlier where I was told on the subject of abortion that no uterus means no opinion, which I disagree with anyway because while the man's opinion shouldn't override the woman's in such a case, you can't just shut them down cause of their sex. It's hypocritical and it's discriminatory.
 
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AlterEgo

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I was having a discussion earlier where I was told on the subject of abortion that no uterus means no opinion, which I disagree with anyway because while the man's opinion shouldn't override the woman's in such a case, you can't just shut them down cause of their sex. It's hypocritical and it's discriminatory.
It's wrong for someone to suggest you can't have an opinion on abortion because of your sex. Everyone is entitled to one, but I think men should realise that they cannot empathise with women with regard to abortion.

While I personally do not like abortion and disagree with it in most cases, the only properly moral thing for me to do in any referendum (like Ireland's today, which obviously I'm unable to vote in!), is to vote to allow women to choose and to trust them with that decision.

it is very liberating to disagree with a principle which does not directly affect you, even profoundly, but to vote to allow your fellow citizens who are affected to make up their own minds based on their own circumstances.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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It's wrong for someone to suggest you can't have an opinion on abortion because of your sex. Everyone is entitled to one, but I think men should realise that they cannot empathise with women with regard to abortion.

While I personally do not like abortion and disagree with it in most cases, the only properly moral thing for me to do in any referendum (like Ireland's today, which obviously I'm unable to vote in!), is to vote to allow women to choose and to trust them with that decision.
I am with you there. No man will ever know the pain or complications of child birth or the abortion, though I think they should have a say about whether they wish to be the father of it. For example, in a scenario where a contraceptive fails and the woman decides she wants the baby but the man doesn't, or even worse where she keeps it just to be a nasty spiteful person to this poor bloke, the man should be able to declare that he has no financial responsibility for this child and such. It's not the most pleasing subject really, and neither solution pleases everyone.
 

AlterEgo

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I am with you there. No man will ever know the pain or complications of child birth or the abortion, though I think they should have a say about whether they wish to be the father of it.
No they should not. If you get a woman pregnant you're the father so step up to the plate chap and be a dad. All babies deserve active, involved and supportive fathers. Don't want fatherhood responsibilities? Don't have sex.

For example, in a scenario where a contraceptive fails and the woman decides she wants the baby but the man doesn't, or even worse where she keeps it just to be a nasty spiteful person to this poor bloke, the man should be able to declare that he has no financial responsibility for this child and such. It's not the most pleasing subject really, and neither solution pleases everyone.
The question of fatherhood is not one to "please people", the baby needs a father. Men who abandon that responsibility are deadbeats.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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No they should not. If you get a woman pregnant you're the father so step up to the plate chap and be a dad. All babies deserve active, involved and supportive fathers. Don't want fatherhood responsibilities? Don't have sex.
Isn't one of the reasons we invented contraceptives and condoms was so people could have safer sex without children coming out of it (along with STD's and STI's of course)? Accidents happen though, and if there is a high rate of them working then one can reasonably expect them to work, and if on the off-chance they don't, I still don't see why the men should be punished for it with a baby they didn't plan to have. It would be a guaranteed solution for a man to just be celibate for the rest of his life, but this can cause a great deal of mental issues. I mean I get that every child deserves an active, involved and supporting father, but then it's pretty much a no-win system for the men. Either risk mental issues and not have sex, or just risk potentially having a child you didn't want. It's a pretty crappy situation really isn't it? That's why people will never be happy...
The question of fatherhood is not one to "please people", the baby needs a father. Men who abandon that responsibility are deadbeats.
I never said the question of fatherhood was meant to please people. I was referring to planned parenthood solutions, and that's a separate debate that I'm sure we shall have one day.
 

AlterEgo

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Isn't one of the reasons we invented contraceptives and condoms was so people could have safer sex without children coming out of it (along with STD's and STI's of course)?
Yes, but contraception is not a guarantee.

Accidents happen though, and if there is a high rate of them working then one can reasonably expect them to work, and if on the off-chance they don't, I still don't see why the men should be punished for it with a baby they didn't plan to have.

Why should a woman be punished? Why do you believe a baby is a punishment? Why should the man get to leave and not pay or contribute towards the child’s upbringing?

It would be a guaranteed solution for a man to just be celibate for the rest of his life, but this can cause a great deal of mental issues. I mean I get that every child deserves an active, involved and supporting father, but then it's pretty much a no-win system for the men. Either risk mental issues and not have sex, or just risk potentially having a child you didn't want. It's a pretty crappy situation really isn't it?
That’s life though, children are regularly conceived by accident.
 

GB

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No they should not. If you get a woman pregnant you're the father so step up to the plate chap and be a dad. All babies deserve active, involved and supportive fathers. Don't want fatherhood responsibilities? Don't have sex.



The question of fatherhood is not one to "please people", the baby needs a father. Men who abandon that responsibility are deadbeats.
While statistically lower, everything you have said applies to the mother as well.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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Yes, but contraception is not a guarantee.
Course not, but one can reasonably expect some degree of reliability.
Why should a woman be punished? Why do you believe a baby is a punishment? Why should the man get to leave and not pay or contribute towards the child’s upbringing?
I don't think a woman should be punished. Matter of fact we've both supported a woman's right to chose in regards to abortion, in your case even despite your disagreement with it. In the case of why a man gets to leave, it would be because in said situation, the woman gets the power to decide. If she doesn't want the child but he does, the child goes. If she wants the child but he doesn't, the child stays. The fact it's the woman's choice leaves men at a disadvantage and potentially at the mercy of a spiteful person who might use it as a weapon later in life (trust me, those people exist), and so it was merely a suggestion to try counterbalance the situation. It isn't something I would just expect to go through, it was merely something that could potentially be discussed with different and more practical solutions for such a subject.

I don't strictly believe a baby to be a punishment either if you're the kind of person who wouldn't mind doing the tough job of raising them from birth, changing dirty nappies, feeding them, spending a great deal of money and potentially sacrificing a lot of free time as well as losing weeks of sleep to console this crying child. If you think it would be worth all the trouble, then by all means it wouldn't seem like a punishment to them. I, on the other hand, don't wish to have a child and don't think I'd be a particularly good parent anyway, which is fine given that I don't risk having one because of my lack of sex life anyway. But not every man feels that way, and it really sucks for them to have little means to feel the said enjoyment without risk of an unwanted child that could cost them so much, especially if they're at a young age.
That’s life though, children are regularly conceived by accident.
I think some poor souls in adoption homes may have figured that out at a young age unfortunately.
 

Bromley boy

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Why do you believe a baby is a punishment?
I agree it shouldn’t be.

Although I’m afraid I know one or two people who could tell you otherwise! Including one bloke whose girlfriend lied to him about being on the pill and ended up bearing a child he didn’t want.

That (very limited) exception aside, I agree with you. A man who fathers a child and shirks that responsibility isn’t fit to call himself a man, in my view.
 

AlterEgo

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Course not, but one can reasonably expect some degree of reliability.
Yes but if it doesn’t work it’s still your responsibility.

In the case of why a man gets to leave, it would be because in said situation, the woman gets the power to decide. If she doesn't want the child but he does, the child goes. If she wants the child but he doesn't, the child stays.
You’re putting the preferences and rights of a man to bugger off and not pay for his child over the right of a baby to grow up with a father. Have a word.

The fact it's the woman's choice leaves men at a disadvantage and potentially at the mercy of a spiteful person who might use it as a weapon later in life (trust me, those people exist), and so it was merely a suggestion to try counterbalance the situation. It isn't something I would just expect to go through, it was merely something that could potentially be discussed with different and more practical solutions for such a subject.
The solution is this: the man pays his share for the child he has fathered. Preferably, he remains in the child’s life. The father doesn’t have to remain with the mother, but he should take every step to be present for the child, provide a proper male role model, pay his share towards the child’s expenses, and make sacrifices like a Dad should.

I, on the other hand, don't wish to have a child and don't think I'd be a particularly good parent anyway
Me either, which begs the question why you’re proposing solutions to a child conceived unintentionally.

But not every man feels that way, and it really sucks for them to have little means to feel the said enjoyment without risk of an unwanted child that could cost them so much, especially if they're at a young age.
Didn’t they do sex education at your school?

Every time you have sex with a woman of child bearing potential you risk fathering a child. Even if she’s on the pill, or has a coil, or you use a condom. Don’t want to risk getting a woman pregnant? Don’t shag her. That’s the deal.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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Yes but if it doesn’t work it’s still your responsibility.

You’re putting the preferences and rights of a man to bugger off and not pay for his child over the right of a baby to grow up with a father. Have a word.

The solution is this: the man pays his share for the child he has fathered. Preferably, he remains in the child’s life. The father doesn’t have to remain with the mother, but he should take every step to be present for the child, provide a proper male role model, pay his share towards the child’s expenses, and make sacrifices like a Dad should.

Me either, which begs the question why you’re proposing solutions to a child conceived unintentionally.

Didn’t they do sex education at your school?

Every time you have sex with a woman of child bearing potential you risk fathering a child. Even if she’s on the pill, or has a coil, or you use a condom. Don’t want to risk getting a woman pregnant? Don’t shag her. That’s the deal.
Now I'm not really going to respond to this in detail because, truth be told, it was never really an original intention to get into a full on debate about abortion and was actually a complete accident due to a result of some bad oversight on my half. Besides, since Ireland's referendum result I've been reconsidering said position on the subject. It's pretty much a fact that sex wasn't really meant for pleasure and is just a way of preserving ourselves as a species, and I always kind of knew this, but since humans have gone beyond being wild animals it could've been reasonable to have suggested some way of avoiding birth altogether. Apparently not though.

Really, the only sure-fire ways of risk-free intercourse for a man is to just have a vasectomy, and unfortunately I've heard most doctors won't give them to young people with no children or sex life, so it's pretty much came back to the same situation of celibacy of risking children. I won't understand why since it's all down to the responsibilities of the individual receiving one, but this is something many people disagree with me on anyway, and a lot of people even in my family wouldn't understand reasons for young men getting them. Doesn't involve me a great deal since, again, I have no sex life anyway, so one might wonder why I'd have one at all.
 

AlterEgo

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It's pretty much a fact that sex wasn't really meant for pleasure and is just a way of preserving ourselves as a species
I don’t mean to pry, but these sound like the words of someone who has never had sex - it’s not “just” a way of preserving our species.

I won't understand why since it's all down to the responsibilities of the individual receiving one,
Because our culture enshrines sovereignty of the self. Your body is yours to do with what you wish, and the same goes for women.
 

DarloRich

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It's pretty much a fact that sex wasn't really meant for pleasure
it is a fairly pleasurable past time! Well at least if you know what to do ;) Taking personal responsibility and using contraception, while not 100 % effective, is a pretty good way of limiting the chances of an unwanted pregnancy. It is your responsibility to ensure you take the required steps.

Abortion wise my view is that while I don't like the concept I do not think I am placed to judge those who may want to use such services. It can not be right that, until the recent referendum in Ireland, a woman raped should be forced to carry an unwanted child to full term. I also do not subscribe to the view that abortion "on demand" creates lifestyle choices. I am fairly certain no one takes such a decision lightly.

Including one bloke whose girlfriend lied to him about being on the pill and ended up bearing a child he didn’t want.
One should still put something on the end of it - personal responsibility and all that
 

61653 HTAFC

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If you're a man, you can have an opinion on the subject of abortion and anyone who says you can't is mistaken. BUT...

Usually when pro-choice people express that men shouldn't have a choice they're usually referring to legislators (who are mostly men) trying to outlaw abortions. In the US several of these legislators have been exposed as hypocrites as they'll run on a pro-life ticket but will pay for their mistress to have an abortion. The pro-life movement also seems to be rife with cognitive dissonance: they tend to promote abstinence only sex education despite most research showing that this is less effective in reducing unwanted pregnancy than a comprehensive approach which includes contraception. This gives the impression (rightly or wrongly) that their agenda isn't so much protection of unborn children but control of women's behaviour.
 

DarloRich

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they tend to promote abstinence only sex education despite most research showing that this is less effective in reducing unwanted pregnancy than a comprehensive approach which includes contraception.
My view is people are going to have sex. Give them the knowledge to make informed choices.

control of women's behaviour.
that is exactly what it is. Don't get me started on the religious angle in all of this!
 

Up_Tilt_390

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I don’t mean to pry, but these sound like the words of someone who has never had sex - it’s not “just” a way of preserving our species.
There aren't many other animals that are assumed to have sex for pleasure though. Dolphins may be one of them, and I think Pigs could be another. But certainly the most prominent that springs to mind is Bonobos, one of our closest relatives, who actually use it to resolve all conflicts. Quite honestly I sometimes wonder if the world would be a better place if humans behaved more than Bonobos than Chimps, the latter of which uses violence to solve all conflicts. I like to think in some parallel universe the Falklands War was actually just a staged gang-bang in Port Stanley. :p
Because our culture enshrines sovereignty of the self. Your body is yours to do with what you wish, and the same goes for women.
But that's what I don't understand about what some people have told me. Apparently doctors don't want to be sued for people who change their mind after getting the snip, which I don't really see much logic in given the fact one's self is one's own responsibility. I don't see much legal grounds for doctors to worry. Of course it seems a lot of people don't like responsibility and will sue for the silliest reasons, and trust me when I say that I know a few who certainly don't enjoy it.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Studies have shown that the brain activity in male mammals during sex is quite similar to that in male humans. Whilst rats for example won't express their sexual behaviour in the same way as humans, the pleasure component is important to ensure that they will want to, and try to, procreate.

Besides, anyone who says other animals don't have sex for pleasure has never had a dog try to hump their leg!
 

Bromley boy

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Abortion wise my view is that while I don't like the concept I do not think I am placed to judge those who may want to use such services. It can not be right that, until the recent referendum in Ireland, a woman raped should be forced to carry an unwanted child to full term. I also do not subscribe to the view that abortion "on demand" creates lifestyle choices. I am fairly certain no one takes such a decision lightly.
I don’t like the concept either, and I get a little worried about the idea of:

- babies being aborted because they are the “wrong” sex;

- babies being aborted due to disability (unless the child is so disabled that it either wouldn’t have any quality of life, or the mothers own life might be put in danger);

- babies being aborted beyond the stage where they could survive if born prematurely (of course that point has come down and down as medical science has progressed)

- I also seem to remember figures showing that a high % of women who have had abortions have in fact had more than one - that *might* suggest it is being used irresponsiblely as a method of contraception.

https://rewire.news/article/2017/09/13/people-multiple-abortions-stigmatizing-counterproductive/

The researchers found that having multiple abortions is quite common, with about 45 percent of abortion patients nationally reporting having more than one abortion.
One should still put something on the end of it - personal responsibility and all that
Agreed, certainly in the context of dating/seeing someone casually. Where two people are in a relationship, discuss their contraception arrangements and one of them lies about it, that is something rather different.
 

Warwick

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On the naughty step again.
Is this a subject for a railway forum?
Now I'm not really going to respond to this in detail because, truth be told, it was never really an original intention to get into a full on debate about abortion and was actually a complete accident due to a result of some bad oversight on my half. Besides, since Ireland's referendum result I've been reconsidering said position on the subject. It's pretty much a fact that sex wasn't really meant for pleasure and is just a way of preserving ourselves as a species, and I always kind of knew this, but since humans have gone beyond being wild animals it could've been reasonable to have suggested some way of avoiding birth altogether. Apparently not though.

Really, the only sure-fire ways of risk-free intercourse for a man is to just have a vasectomy, and unfortunately I've heard most doctors won't give them to young people with no children or sex life, so it's pretty much came back to the same situation of celibacy of risking children. I won't understand why since it's all down to the responsibilities of the individual receiving one, but this is something many people disagree with me on anyway, and a lot of people even in my family wouldn't understand reasons for young men getting them. Doesn't involve me a great deal since, again, I have no sex life anyway, so one might wonder why I'd have one at all.
Sex may have not been designed for pleasure but it brings pleasure. The reason that it's pleasurable is to encourage couples - of all species - to indulge in the act of procreation to encourage breeding, otherwise why go through an often messy, dangerous and prolonged ritual? The purpose of life in it's most basic definitive form is to survive and breed to ensure the continuation of the species. Unfortunately in the case of one particular species we've become rather too good at it.

Is this really a subject for a railway forum?
 

radamfi

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It's pretty much a fact that sex wasn't really meant for pleasure and is just a way of preserving ourselves as a species, and I always kind of knew this, but since humans have gone beyond being wild animals it could've been reasonable to have suggested some way of avoiding birth altogether. Apparently not though.
You've had some flack for this remark, but it is certainly true in one respect. Sexual desire is a "trick" that nature plays to encourage people to have intercourse and therefore propagate the species. Think about what happens 1 second after ejaculation. Sexual desire is gone. Your body no longer craves sex. That's when you know that it is a trick.

Really, the only sure-fire ways of risk-free intercourse for a man is to just have a vasectomy, and unfortunately I've heard most doctors won't give them to young people with no children or sex life, so it's pretty much came back to the same situation of celibacy of risking children.
One other option to reduce your risk dramatically is to only have sex with women over 45.
 

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Abortion should be safe, legal and rare. I think that's what everyone on the pro-choice side wants really. No-one wants to have an abortion for its own sake, much as no-one particularly wants to have to go to the doctor or dentist. And indeed most people who have abortions are already mothers. It should not be hard to access though - I believe currently you need two doctors to agree before it can happen in this country.

Regarding the idea of a man's right to choose, no, you don't have a right there. A baby is a parasite which lives inside a woman for nine months, making them alternately sick, hungry, and generally permanently ****ing with their body, to have to be expelled in an incredibly painful procedure. If it were an external person doing that, we'd classify it as torture. No one has the right to inflict that on another human being, no matter whether what is causing it is 50% you. Until such time as men can be pregnant, we quite rightly do not have a say.
 

DarloRich

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You've had some flack for this remark, but it is certainly true in one respect. Sexual desire is a "trick" that nature plays to encourage people to have intercourse and therefore propagate the species. Think about what happens 1 second after ejaculation. Sexual desire is gone. Your body no longer craves sex. That's when you know that it is a trick.
You, perhaps, speak for yourself. Your view does not match my experience. I am also not sure you really understand how sexual relationships work.

One other option to reduce your risk dramatically is to only have sex with women over 45.
Women over 45 can still conceive albeit less easily and with greater risk. Your best option other than abstinence, which most of us wish to avoid, is contraception. With proper use of contraception the chances of conceiving are very low. As a man I take it as my responsibility to ensure I am suitably prepared.

Regarding the idea of a man's right to choose, no, you don't have a right there. A baby is a parasite which lives inside a woman for nine months, making them alternately sick, hungry, and generally permanently ****ing with their body, to have to be expelled in an incredibly painful procedure. If it were an external person doing that, we'd classify it as torture. No one has the right to inflict that on another human being, no matter whether what is causing it is 50% you. Until such time as men can be pregnant, we quite rightly do not have a say.
perhaps another poster with a confused view of the world. Very few people would share your description of a baby as a "parasite".

And yes men do have a say. If we are man enough to get someone pregnant we are man enough to be involved in ( not solely responsible for) any decisions associated with the result
 

radamfi

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You, perhaps, speak for yourself. Your view does not match my experience. I am also not sure you really understand how sexual relationships work.
The refractory period is well known and searching for "loss of interest after orgasm" yields many results.

Women over 45 can still conceive albeit less easily and with greater risk. Your best option other than abstinence, which most of us wish to avoid, is contraception. With proper use of contraception the chances of conceiving are very low. As a man I take it as my responsibility to ensure I am suitably prepared.
A quick search yields the likelihood of a 30 year old woman getting pregnant in a month is 20%, at 40 it is 5% and at 45 it is 1%. Obviously male contraception on top adds extra security.

If one is really worried about getting a woman pregnant, an escort would be highly unlikely to stitch you up for child maintenance. First of all, escorts are highly likely to use the pill and insist on condoms at the same time, but even if all else failed, she wouldn't know which partner is responsible.
 
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