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Alert driver - HT wrong roaded at Gilberdyke
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R
RailUK Forums
Yes, my point (somewhere over the last couple of pages) exactly - the distant will always be maintained at caution for the lower speed route (unless a splitting distant is provided...not sure if there are any remaining that read to a semaphore junction signal) providing that control. Nowt worth 'mac' getting upset about.
I just thought I would help you out as you do tend to use long* words at times which some people struggle with.
* As in more than 4 letters.
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I think we can all agree on that, apart from the example of an electric train routed into an isolated section...they're not troubled by electrickery and other newfangled technology out in the wildlands beyond Google though
Many moons ago (when locos were in any colour you wanted as long as it was blue) there was a semi regular move at New Street where an electric loco was routed across a non electrified cross over to access the loco holding sidings, the loco got a bit of speed up, dropped the pan, coasted across, stopped in the siding and raised the pan. It got stopped when manglement found out about it and so a double shunt had to be implemented which just caused delays.
Thanks - must have learnt all those big words whilst sitting out in the sun reading books* between trains.
* - not the Rule Book - that doesn't have big words any more, just lots of pictures.
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Railsigns
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There is, at Hilton Junction (Perth).
Railsigns
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You mean a wrong route was set, train was checked down with a double yellow at wymondly (the way it is set up if routed down fast to down Cambridge), so crawled around the corner to the red at the end if the platforms at Hitchin, saw the wrong route, called up the signaller who apologised for misreading the head code, re-set the route and the train carried on.
It happens, as I say, fairly often. There was no danger to the train, it's passengers or any other train in the area. It is unlikely that the driver wouldn't notice both the feather and points being set for Cambridge, especially after being checked down to a red. It's not ideal and would have caused a few mins delay but these things happen from time to time.
Unfortunately for us signallers most signals have a 2 minute timer on them if you put them back to danger when there is a train in the vicinity of it. Unfortunately this means if you are unfortunate to pull off a wrong route, when the driver rings in you have to wait for the longest 2 minutes of your life whilst you wait for the interlocking to time the signal out; by which time the TDA Clerk is on the phone chasing up a 3+ minute delay. Doh!
Unless the driver is able (and willing) to contact you as soon as they realise the route is wrong, okay at Hitchin there wasnt much the driver could do until they saw the the signal clear (with the feather) but in my case it was easy as I saw a greenwhich should have been double yellow.
Of course some drivers have had the chip inserted and would stitch their own mother up if they got the chance.
I prefer my way as it keeps the train on time (no paperwork)!
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Unless the driver is able (and willing) to contact you as soon as they realise the route is wrong, okay at Hitchin there wasnt much the driver could do until they saw the the signal clear (with the feather) but in my case it was easy as I saw a greenwhich should have been double yellow.
Of course some drivers have had the chip inserted and would stitch their own mother up if they got the chance.
I prefer my way as it keeps the train on time (no paperwork)!
That particular route at Hitchin won't be detected as wrong until ontop of the red as it's hidden round a bend and restrictive aspects obviously don't just mean the diverging road is set. But as you say, you can notify on the signaller on approach to save time. I have been on a Cambridge express before and I had a green at wymondly which meant the signal at the end of Hitchin at form is set straight ahead on the mainline. I put the brake in as normal for the junction and called the box up on the move. The signal was taken back at Hitchin and reset so no delay was incurred as it takes about 2 mins to approach that signal normally anyway.
Darren R
Established Member
Are there many (or indeed any) locations where a driver could be given the wrong road at a relatively high speed and not know about it until sighting the junction signal? If two diverging routes are both fairly high-speed turnout (say both are 75mph), will trains get greens all the way to the junction whichever route is to be taken? I just wondered if it happens that a train is given the wrong road and driver sails past (braking hard) but still overshoots considerably. Presumably having to stop, report and set-back would lead to considerable delays on a busy line. (It's just occurred to me that's what NRE means when they say there is disruption due to an "Operating Incident"! 
)
)Are there many (or indeed any) locations where a driver could be given the wrong road at a relatively high speed and not know about it until sighting the junction signal? If two diverging routes are both fairly high-speed turnout (say both are 75mph), will trains get greens all the way to the junction whichever route is to be taken? I just wondered if it happens that a train is given the wrong road and driver sails past (braking hard) but still overshoots considerably. Presumably having to stop, report and set-back would lead to considerable delays on a busy line. (It's just occurred to me that's what NRE means when they say there is disruption due to an "Operating Incident"!
There are locations where the speed difference is minor enough not to need restrictive signalling and one obvious location almost exactly as you describe is marshmoor junction on the east coast mainline near Hatfield. The junction takes the up slow to the up fast between Hatfield and wellham green. It's 75 on the up slow and 70 for the up slow to up fast crossover and so you will get greens all the way through the junction.
The junction signal is very poorly sighted (it has a banner but that doesn't indicate the route) and should a stopper be routed on to the fast it's almost impossible that the driver would be able to stop in time after seeing the signal. The issue here is that if you are routed onto the fast you can't stop at wellham green. Obviously not a safety issue but an inconvenience. I highly doubt that they would authorise you to change ends and set back as the line is so busy and wellham green gets 3 trains per hour so they would probably just tell you to continue to brookmans park which has fast line platforms. I don't know of this ever happening, marshmoor tends only to be used by the stoppers from Cambridge and peterbourgh.
Other locations that spring to mind are Hitchin south on the up which is also 75 through or 70 across (no risk at all of wrong routing as you can stop at Stevenage on the fast or slow and also run back onto the slow at Stevenage north for Hertford) and the new up slow 2 at Alexandra palace when coming from Bowes park which is 30 up Hertford to up slow 2 and 25 up Hertford to up slow 1.
When things are refered to as operating incidents it's a vague term covering exactly what it says on the tin. It could be a wrong route, it could be a fail to call (driver not stopping at a station booked to for whatever reason), it could be other driver incidents like a spad or stop short and could also be a number of other thing, not always an error on the part of the driver or other staff. Often they say operating incident when something has happened that is being investigated in one way or another. It's obviously not good to publicise details of incidents and they have tot read carefully before anything has been confirmed. For example, suggesting a driver has had a spad when investigation could show it was actually a cat B or C spad which isn't driver error.
Aparently they dont exist any more, now its just a cat A or a Signal Passed At Red which is classed as an operating incident.
Indeed, but I still think cat b and c are useful to refer to when talking about spads. Even though they suddenly stopped existing overnight. Basically if it's the driver fault it's a cat a spad. If it's the signaller or equipment at fault then it's all ok...
Very true but we can hardly blame the signallers for the change can we!
You have to admit, calling it a CAT A SPAD does make it sound nice and sinister, something CAT B or CAT C lacks.
Very true but we can hardly blame the signallers for the change can we!
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Well when they knock the wrong switch and the green signal you are calmly approaching at the best part of 100mph turns to red infront of you resulting in soiled pants and the signaller says very sheepishly "sorry driver, it looks like we had a power surge" it's hard not to portions a certain amount of blame on them!
(I mean that in a light hearted way before any signallers take offence...I know mistakes happen and don't hold a grudge!)
Darren R
Established Member
Interesting - I'd sort of worked on the theory that an "Operating Incident" generally meant something either too embarrassing or too complicated to explain publicly!
It seems I should also add "too soon to explain." I'd never have thought of that.Interesting - I'd sort of worked on the theory that an "Operating Incident" generally meant something either too embarrassing or too complicated to explain publicly!
I wouldn't say 'embarrassing' as these things happen. It's more that broadcasting a spad or station Overrun etc is going to read worse than it is. It will lead to press repots, passengers worrying and over reacting etc.
It's one of the busiest lines in the country, I'm told, to be worked by Absolute Block - not many AB lines will deal with between 90 and 100 in a nine hour shift. Gilberdyke works AB to Broomfleet (towards Hull) and to Saltmarshe (towards Goole); it's Track Circuit Block to Selby West. So it probably covers a much greater area than you perhaps realise. There are at least twenty signals under Gilberdyke control, plus the junction, crossover and horse dock. All of these must be cleared and replaced with every train. We also have an AHB as well as a good selection of UWCs!
Gilberdyke is a very busy box and it's quite common to be on your feet for hours at a time. Add a few line blockages into the mix and there's a lot going on. Despite all of that, Gilberdyke's my favourite out of the boxes I sign!
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