And what if it's not the ride, but the person behind the buttons? It's still under investigation and I dare say a lot of those polled haven't taken that into account.
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Alton Towers incident
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I was at Alton Towers once several years ago queuing for Oblivion. The car got stuck hanging over the edge of the drop, and the park actually sent an employee up to the top, safety harness and all, to release it. I'm pretty scared of rollercoasters and I was not filled with confidence watching this, but too embarassed to wimp out and leave the queue!
Luckily when my turn came everything went smoothly, so I only had to be terrified for a few seconds.
To the average casual visitor The Smiler is now the ride that crashed and took a girls leg off, that poll is probably showing the viewpoint of that sort of person. And as far as Alton Towers and Merlin are concerned that is the sort of person who they need to make sure keep buying tickets!
I really wonder what purpose a poll like that serves? I suspect those who participated have no idea of the cause of the accident or the risks involved.
chris11256
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It's amazing the amount of people that want the ride torn down or completely redesigned. It's ridiculous. Consider that Big Thunder Mountain at Disney(it's at all parks) has actually killed someone. Yet it's one of Disney's most popular rides and remais unchanged in design and theme. Even with the death it was only closed for a few months, some people want the Smiler shut all year.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think it is fair to argue that the ride should (and it is said it does) have an interlock that prevents an operator doing something stupid of that nature. The railway learnt that years ago.
So while the operator may or may not have done something stupid (the enquiry can decide that) it's still a problem that the ride didn't prevent it.
chris11256
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I was reading a post on another forum by a Alton towers ride operator, who has worked on Smiler. It does have a manual mode and when enabled it's completely manual which means every single lift/brake is under the control of the operator. In this mode it will alert the operator to possible incidents, but assumes the operator knows what they're doing and will not automatically take action/
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Alton Towers needs to review it's procedures. There's absolutely no need for first responders to have to assess a serious incident. Also, I see no need for them to then have to call security who then call 999.
As soon it was apparent that there had been a major incident, which would have been about half a second afterwards, 999 should have been called immediately.
As soon it was apparent that there had been a major incident, which would have been about half a second afterwards, 999 should have been called immediately.
sprinterguy
Established Member
It's interesting that within the railway's Safety Management Information System report form (of which certain categories of incident get reported through to RAIB) there was a selection option for "fairground equipment". I had it explained to me after skimming over it in bewilderment a few times, but can't for the life of me remember if it included incidents with rollercoasters.
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I have no idea about how the block system works on a roller coaster, but is it possible (due to a design flaw, or technical oversight) for a train to exit a block thereby allowing the preceeding train to enter the block it just occupied, but then due to an issue the first train rolls back and then fouls the previous block?
sprinterguy
Established Member
I felt a bit dubious watching from the queue while Oblivion was delayed because the technicians couldn't get one of the overhead safety harnesses to lock down. Needless to say that the defective car was taken out of service immediately, giving us an interesting opportunity to see the traverser in operation between track and "shed" (a bit of "rare track" for the rollercoaster gricers there if you can get it!I was at Alton Towers once several years ago queuing for Oblivion. The car got stuck hanging over the edge of the drop, and the park actually sent an employee up to the top, safety harness and all, to release it. I'm pretty scared of rollercoasters and I was not filled with confidence watching this, but too embarassed to wimp out and leave the queue!
Luckily when my turn came everything went smoothly, so I only had to be terrified for a few seconds.
), but the possibilities of what could happen if your harness were to suddenly spring open over that near vertical drop (though perhaps the forces related to the sudden acceleration of the car over the edge might keep you "pinned" in your seat through the main drop?) was at the forefront of our minds when we did get on!
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I have been on Air when (because I pulled it down too far) I ended up with a safety harness locked only on one side. I shouted for the staff who fortunately heard and released and re-locked it. While I suspect it would have just jolted into position, this was more than a little nerve-racking - even given that Air is not a particularly harsh ride. I recall (but may recall wrongly) that Air doesn't have the seat-belt-style additional lock that some others have.
Does there perhaps need to be some kind of alert button, which if pressed the initial departure cannot take place?
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It does look like this would be a possibility, which is where it differs from a flat railway (though not completely, I guess a roll-back on something like the Lickey could still enter a previous block occupied by a train). Arguably the blocks should be designed such that this is not a possibility (i.e. one block would contain all possible roll-backs even given a complete failure of the braking system), but perhaps they aren't?
Notably some roller-coasters are designed to allow for roll-back, particularly those ones like Rita and the other similar one where acceleration from the start is done using linear motors (or similar) rather than by the more traditional approach of being pulled up to the top of a hill and let go.
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If that is possible, one assumes that mode should not be used with passengers on board? Perhaps that is an area of procedure (who can use it, how they authorise and who can authorise) that may need investigating if that was the case.
Not dissimilar, perhaps, to a case involving the disabling of the TPWS by the crew of a steam locomotive.
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chris11256
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Usually on modern rollercoasters when a harness doesn't lock properly, it wont let the operator dispatch the train.
Regarding the block system I'm unsure. I've heard reports that the ride may have been operating manually at the time. Which meant that the safety systems can be overridden(only with an engineer key). However none of this is confirmed
What's interesting is that the train(with people in) did stop at a lift for about 10 minutes. This suggests that safety systems were working. Perhaps the system got overridden and the train allowed to proceed? Just educated guesses.
The ride can only be operated in manual mode by an engineer. Normal operators don't have the authority to use it.
Regarding the block system I'm unsure. I've heard reports that the ride may have been operating manually at the time. Which meant that the safety systems can be overridden(only with an engineer key). However none of this is confirmed
What's interesting is that the train(with people in) did stop at a lift for about 10 minutes. This suggests that safety systems were working. Perhaps the system got overridden and the train allowed to proceed? Just educated guesses.
The ride can only be operated in manual mode by an engineer. Normal operators don't have the authority to use it.
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As someone who spent years studying the design of roller coasters before choosing an engineering discipline elsewhere I have a lot of interest in this incident as it seems to have been either a computer control malfunction or operator error (or indeed, both concurrently).
To assess incidents like these (and I assume in the rail industry) a fault tree analysis is undertaken to work out firstly the possible permutations of the incidents that could happen to safely design them out or mitigate for them, and secondly after an incident to work out the issues that caused the event, also known as the antecedent.
The thing is these systems have limitations and it takes great engineering expertise to work outside the box. One thing that people are seemingly forgetting it that there are two events here, both of which shouldn't have happened. The initial "stall" of the cart in the batwing element is a big event. It would require the entire section of Alton Towers to close and the ride cart either be dismantled on-site, or to be craned through the ride to the next block section, which on The Smiler, is the second lift hill.
This first incident is worrying and rare enough to warrant an investigation. It had also happened before in the same section, an area of the ride known to have profiling issues.
My point is that there are so many reasons that could have caused the incident that it's hard to speculate outside of a few good guesses, but the fact that there is a single incident (the valleyed cart) that escalated when the passenger cart was released from the top of the lift hill (which, it should be noted, is correct procedure when the following block is uncleared) shows that there has been a catastrophic failure of processes.
There is evidence to support that it might have been an operational (human or technical) error in this instance though; Merlin have suspended operations on three other rides, one of which is built by the same company as The Smiler.
To assess incidents like these (and I assume in the rail industry) a fault tree analysis is undertaken to work out firstly the possible permutations of the incidents that could happen to safely design them out or mitigate for them, and secondly after an incident to work out the issues that caused the event, also known as the antecedent.
The thing is these systems have limitations and it takes great engineering expertise to work outside the box. One thing that people are seemingly forgetting it that there are two events here, both of which shouldn't have happened. The initial "stall" of the cart in the batwing element is a big event. It would require the entire section of Alton Towers to close and the ride cart either be dismantled on-site, or to be craned through the ride to the next block section, which on The Smiler, is the second lift hill.
This first incident is worrying and rare enough to warrant an investigation. It had also happened before in the same section, an area of the ride known to have profiling issues.
My point is that there are so many reasons that could have caused the incident that it's hard to speculate outside of a few good guesses, but the fact that there is a single incident (the valleyed cart) that escalated when the passenger cart was released from the top of the lift hill (which, it should be noted, is correct procedure when the following block is uncleared) shows that there has been a catastrophic failure of processes.
There is evidence to support that it might have been an operational (human or technical) error in this instance though; Merlin have suspended operations on three other rides, one of which is built by the same company as The Smiler.
Given the BBC has said the closure of other rides is to give additional staff training, one would be reasonably able to suspect that human factors played a part.
It might be about what the operator can or can't do, how they respond to incidents, or both.
It might be about what the operator can or can't do, how they respond to incidents, or both.
Really? I've not read of any amputation.
Nor have I but The Guardian reports that a fractured leg and collapsed lung are the injuries of one male. Still pretty
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Really? I'd say serious, but I wouldn't say "horrific", nor are they likely to be substantially life-changing. Take a particularly bad fall off your pushbike at speed and you could easily end up with that (or worse), and you see a lot worse lined up in Geneva airport departures after ski accidents every day in the winter. Recovery may be slow and painful, but life in this case will go on in the long term.
I think (if you don't mind me saying) you're escalating the significance of the injuries because such accidents are so rare, and because there is (quite rightly) an expectation of complete safety despite the perceived fear when riding a rollercoaster at an established theme park. Doesn't mean it's OK, but equally nobody is being put in a wheelchair or worse, and I'm sure given how well-off a company Merlin is they will be generously compensated.
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Thanks for correcting me. I'm sure the victim will agree with you that his injuries aren't in any way horrific, after being taken covered in blood via ambulance to a hospital with one functioning lung and a mangled leg not even knowing the full extent of his injuries and possibly in shock too. Throw in not knowing if the other people survived. You're right, that wouldn't be a horrific experience at all.
An unconfirmed report attributed to an Alton Towers 'staff source'. Subsequent reports make no mention that any of the seriously injured have had an amputation.
Not saying that now. And now is Sky showing the whole interview with Kay Burley earlier either.
Johnuk123
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Sky is saying that her lawyer has described her condition as critical.
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DaleCooper
Established Member
I feel left out here because I neither know the exact cause of the accident nor the condition of the injured which sort of disqualifies me from commenting.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think we're arguing semantics here, but while I'm sure it would have been an extremely unpleasant experience, for which I'm sure he will receive substantial compensation, I would tend to reserve such a strong word for describing really unpleasant scenes e.g. the scene of a major plane crash or similar, or perhaps an accident where not everyone survived. Each to their own, though; I don't think there's a huge point in continuing this part of the thread much further as I think we just disagree on a point of wording. Whatever is the case, those involved certainly didn't get the enjoyable day out at the theme park they were expecting.
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Okay. No need for that. I merely go by news reports. And none are now saying anyone has had an amputation. Critical does not equal amputation.
Indeed.Neil Williams said:
No hard feelings I hope Neil
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The Saw at Thorpe Park and the dragons fury and rattlesnake rides at Chessington have been closed amid safety fears.
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Quoted as 11 minutes in todays edition
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Quoted as 11 minutes in todays edition
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