Are GTR finished?

[Deepgreen]

I don't think DOR could take over - I believe they've been wound up.

Haven't we all!

 

[Class377/5]

Network Rail publishes a list of DOO(P) cleared routes in the Sectional Appendix; to change them would require their input.



There also has to be a risk assessment done and agreed before each station's dispatch plan can be amended to allow self-dispatch from unstaffed stations. (Or at least there is supposed to be one if they honour the contract, which is now questionable after the 12-car dispute.)

Not all guards will become OBS this summer, since it will take time to get the routes cleared.

Think you'll find that actually all risk assessments are done by the TOC as it's THIER staff not NR. NR has input and don't confuse info NR includes with final authority to run a train DOO or not.

 

[redbutton]

Think you'll find that actually all risk assessments are done by the TOC as it's THIER staff not NR. NR has input and don't confuse info NR includes with final authority to run a train DOO or not.

Six of one, half dozen of the other. The TOC does the risk assessments, which then are to be used to draft a station dispatch plan which is agreed by NR and union health and safety. There may also be rulebook changes and union T&C changes required, because there is a list of infrastructure criteria (more than just CCTV) that a route must meet before it can be considered for DOO and I'm not sure all of them do at the moment.

The point is that GTR-Southern won't be able to go 100% DOO for some time after the initial transition date, so they intend to keep some guards on the payroll.

Also, SWT have already flatly refused to allow DOO services to call at the stations they manage.

 

[Tetchytyke]

At the start of this dispute Southern clearly stated they had only opted to make the role redundant following the RMTs refusal to cooperate or negotiate

Except that is demonstrably false, as GTR were also saying from the word go that "redundancy is a purely technical matter" and that nobody should fear the process.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Working to rule is outrageous and unfair? Well that's a new one then. It's outrageous and unfair to fulfill your contract. Erm, thanks?

There was a very interesting letter posted to a well-known social media website a few days ago. This was written by Piero McCarthy (Head of Conductors at GTR) making it clear that all rest-day working was to be banned for everyone, not just those who undertook strike action. It is clear that GTR chose to not have cover for their rotas, and it isn't the RMT staff refusing to work their rest days.

I can't help but wonder why GTR's senior management would take such a step if they had no intention of deliberately causing these issues for PR purposes.

Interestingly, back on my subject of GTR management being repeated failures, it's interesting to note that Mr McCarthy lasted a whopping five months as Head of Revenue Protection at Northern (i.e. he's the guy who issued all the dodgy £80 Penalty Fakes) before moving on for seven months as Head of Customer Services at GTR (i.e. he's the guy who rejected all our Delay Repay claims). Sounds like a successful individual, easily as talented as Charles Horton, and well worth his salary.

 

[Class377/5]

Six of one, half dozen of the other. The TOC does the risk assessments, which then are to be used to draft a station dispatch plan which is agreed by NR and union health and safety. There may also be rulebook changes and union T&C changes required, because there is a list of infrastructure criteria (more than just CCTV) that a route must meet before it can be considered for DOO and I'm not sure all of them do at the moment.

The point is that GTR-Southern won't be able to go 100% DOO for some time after the initial transition date, so they intend to keep some guards on the payroll.

Also, SWT have already flatly refused to allow DOO services to call at the stations they manage.

Not it's not. It's the TOC legal responsibility to ensure there is a safe method of working. NR can input it's it's the TOC that must have a proven system of work or it'd end up in court.

The only time NR gets involved is when things like lighting is not up to the required standard as has happened recently.

GTR have never ever said they are going 100% DOO. In fact the current argument isn't over going 100% DOO but simply changing towards that figure not to that figure. GTR expects guards to remain during the life of its franchise but less numbers with some jobs moved over to OBS roles.

 

[Greybeard33]

BBC Radio 4's Today programme has had a series of packages this week on the GTR situation, which are available on Listen Again.

Yesterday's, 16 June, http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07fl5bc started about 52 minutes into the programme and included an interview with Tony Miles. His view was that GTR managers are amongst the most experienced in the industry, but he suggested that they have little choice but to dance to the tune of their Ministerial puppet masters, given that GTR had been awarded the franchise as a management contract with strict requirements to change the roles of guards. He said that a DOR takeover would not change anything, because managers would still be subject to the same pressures from Whitehall. The Government is using GTR as the trojan horse for rolling out DOO across the industry, because with this contract it is the government, not the franchisee, that suffers the loss of revenue from industrial action.

Today, 17 June, http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07flbs3 Dyan Crowther, COO of GTR, was interviewed at about 1 hour 49 minutes into the programme. She did not deny that GTR might have cancelled some services even though a crew was available, but said this would be because of lack of a crew to take over the same rolling stock diagram from a later shift change. She denied GTR had any ban on rest day working. She sidestepped questions about Government "pulling the strings", but said that she did not "see any benefit in changing the name above the door".

 

[Deepgreen]

BBC Radio 4's Today programme has had a series of packages this week on the GTR situation, which are available on Listen Again.

Yesterday's, 16 June, http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07fl5bc started about 52 minutes into the programme and included an interview with Tony Miles. His view was that GTR managers are amongst the most experienced in the industry, but he suggested that they have little choice but to dance to the tune of their Ministerial puppet masters, given that GTR had been awarded the franchise as a management contract with strict requirements to change the roles of guards. He said that a DOR takeover would not change anything, because managers would still be subject to the same pressures from Whitehall. The Government is using GTR as the trojan horse for rolling out DOO across the industry, because with this contract it is the government, not the franchisee, that suffers the loss of revenue from industrial action.

Today, 17 June, http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07flbs3 Dyan Crowther, COO of GTR, was interviewed at about 1 hour 49 minutes into the programme. She did not deny that GTR might have cancelled some services even though a crew was available, but said this would be because of lack of a crew to take over the same rolling stock diagram from a later shift change. She denied GTR had any ban on rest day working. She sidestepped questions about Government "pulling the strings", but said that she did not "see any benefit in changing the name above the door".

So cancel it then if necessary, not before!

 

[infobleep]

A bit tarnished?! That's a huge understatement! The Gatwick Express brand is also suffering heavily, especially given many people realise the trains are no faster (indeed often slower) than their Southern trains and very often the "Express" is cancelled and passengers are simply told to wait 15/30/45 minutes until the next one, rather than told about a train leaving from another platform in just a few minutes. People are getting very angry.

I totally agree with your point. South West Trains tell passengers at Surbiton which train will get then to Waterloo first, it which fast train will get then their first. That might even be a semi-fast train. The 8.56 semi-fast for example gets into Waterloo before the 9.11 fast, even though it stops at 4 additional stations.

Southern don't do that at Gatwick Airport.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[F Great Eastern]

I did say that when FCC lost the franchise, all of the moaners about FCC celebrating them losing the franchise would get a nasty shock coming to them not too far into the future.

Knowing a few people who worked in FCC, most of them felt that they got a lot of unfair flak and things would only get worse.

 

[Class377/5]

So cancel it then if necessary, not before!

And what the hell do you do with stock at places like Haywards Heath then? Because that's what your actually suggesting.

 

[Hadders]

I did say that when FCC lost the franchise, all of the moaners about FCC celebrating them losing the franchise would get a nasty shock coming to them not too far into the future.

Knowing a few people who worked in FCC, most of them felt that they got a lot of unfair flak and things would only get worse.

I think FCC generally ran a good service and dealt with quite a few overcrowding issues in the peak by acquiring more stock and revising the calling patterns. Two adverse things they will be remembered for though:

- introduction of evening peak restrictions
- the awful reputation of their revenue protection team

 

[jon0844]

I did say that when FCC lost the franchise, all of the moaners about FCC celebrating them losing the franchise would get a nasty shock coming to them not too far into the future.

Knowing a few people who worked in FCC, most of them felt that they got a lot of unfair flak and things would only get worse.

I think they did a good job, but had a few suspect bosses and quite a high turnover, but even by the end it had managed to do a very good job on GN and done as best as could be expected on a live running building site on TL - as well as initially being limited on rolling stock with nothing else suitable (and getting every 319 quite quickly).

Evening peak restrictions were possibly necessary, but when we get all this new capacity will GTR be ditching them? FCC had said at the very start it might be temporary - but nobody believed it. Did they?!

At the end of the day, at the time Southern were doing a pretty good job and so was FCC so when it all merged, it was always going to be the case that one good company was going to lose out.

How did it then go so wrong for Govia? Is it just because it's a management contract, or because of other management issues? Southern is now a total joke but it wasn't always like that.

 

[47271]

Today, 17 June, http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07flbs3 Dyan Crowther, COO of GTR, was interviewed at about 1 hour 49 minutes into the programme. She did not deny that GTR might have cancelled some services even though a crew was available, but said this would be because of lack of a crew to take over the same rolling stock diagram from a later shift change. She denied GTR had any ban on rest day working. She sidestepped questions about Government "pulling the strings", but said that she did not "see any benefit in changing the name above the door".

Dearie me, listen to it if you haven't already. I heard it at the time and she sounded for all the world like someone who didn't totally get it and whose strings were being pulled.

Whatever the causes, the situation is a national disgrace. I live pretty far north in Scotland and as it stands I can attend London meetings more reliably and easily than a colleague based in Brighton.

 

[danielnez1]

I don't think DOR could take over - I believe they've been wound up.

No they haven’t

 

[redbutton]

Not it's not. It's the TOC legal responsibility to ensure there is a safe method of working. NR can input it's it's the TOC that must have a proven system of work or it'd end up in court.

The only time NR gets involved is when things like lighting is not up to the required standard as has happened recently.

GTR have never ever said they are going 100% DOO. In fact the current argument isn't over going 100% DOO but simply changing towards that figure not to that figure. GTR expects guards to remain during the life of its franchise but less numbers with some jobs moved over to OBS roles.

NR are also responsible for installing and maintaining the platform DOO monitors and mirrors.

I'm sorry if I implied that they were planning 100% DOO, but they have been clear that their policy going forward is DOO-wherever-possible, which may as well be 100% because it will get there eventually.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

BBC Radio 4's Today programme has had a series of packages this week on the GTR situation, which are available on Listen Again.

Yesterday's, 16 June, http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07fl5bc started about 52 minutes into the programme and included an interview with Tony Miles. His view was that GTR managers are amongst the most experienced in the industry, but he suggested that they have little choice but to dance to the tune of their Ministerial puppet masters, given that GTR had been awarded the franchise as a management contract with strict requirements to change the roles of guards. He said that a DOR takeover would not change anything, because managers would still be subject to the same pressures from Whitehall. The Government is using GTR as the trojan horse for rolling out DOO across the industry, because with this contract it is the government, not the franchisee, that suffers the loss of revenue from industrial action.

As a fellow regular listener to BBC Radio 4 who actually heard this broadcast, the matter of those Whitehall hands actually pulling the strings in this dispute still seems lost on some contributors to this thread. As such, what Tony Miles said above is a true summation of matters, whether people like it or not.

 

[87015]

As a fellow regular listener to BBC Radio 4 who actually heard this broadcast, the matter of those Whitehall hands actually pulling the strings in this dispute still seems lost on some contributors to this thread. As such, what Tony Miles said above is a true summation of matters, whether people like it or not.

Same Mr Miles that declared that was absolutely no plan for new hauled stock on TPE and mocked those who knew there was? Doesn't make it gospel, DfT haven't set up an office inside GTR (yet, maybe)

Oh, and my small protest was to not renew my season this year. Even at priv rate the GTR "service" of both TL and SN wasn't offering what I considered worth paying for, and it's got a lot worse since!

 

[Lynford1976]

As a fellow regular listener to BBC Radio 4 who actually heard this broadcast, the matter of those Whitehall hands actually pulling the strings in this dispute still seems lost on some contributors to this thread. As such, what Tony Miles said above is a true summation of matters, whether people like it or not.

Agreed.

 

[speedy_sticks]

As a fellow regular listener to BBC Radio 4 who actually heard this broadcast, the matter of those Whitehall hands actually pulling the strings in this dispute still seems lost on some contributors to this thread. As such, what Tony Miles said above is a true summation of matters, whether people like it or not.

It's like somebody dying from a terminal illness and not making their ending any less painful with Southern I am annoyed with.

I have spoken to the accessibility manager of Southern a few times and not once did he offer to negotiate about things like connecting all help points to their own UK call centre, integration off an assist app, etc.

They just don't seem to care about making this process easier for all concerned.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Same Mr Miles that declared that was absolutely no plan for new hauled stock on TPE and mocked those who knew there was? Doesn't make it gospel, DfT haven't set up an office inside GTR (yet, maybe)

Oh, and my small protest was to not renew my season this year. Even at priv rate the GTR "service" of both TL and SN wasn't offering what I considered worth paying for, and it's got a lot worse since!

Do I take it, therefore, that by speaking on a different subject matter to that stated, you do not agree with the summation that was stated concerning the Whitehall hands acting as puppeteer?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think FCC generally ran a good service and dealt with quite a few overcrowding issues in the peak by acquiring more stock and revising the calling patterns. Two adverse things they will be remembered for though:

- introduction of evening peak restrictions
- the awful reputation of their revenue protection team

The GN side of FCC did receive a significant increase in seats through their well planned stock capacity plan , and the TLK side handled bravely the various infrastructure capacity upgrades (anyone remember the Blackfriars "run through" for example , or the Moorgate works and 12 car platforms etc

Both sides of the house saw considerable patronage increases.

FCC TLK improved the cleanliness condition of the fleet , but did initially struggle with the millenium period graffiti vandalism.

However , let us not forget the 2 hard winters of 2010 / 2011 - when coupled with a drivers dispute when the TLK service became almost unusable for a lengthy period.I gave up at one point and travelled via the Abbey Branch and Watford.

A very hard operation to manage to be fair.

 

[northwichcat]

Same Mr Miles that declared that was absolutely no plan for new hauled stock on TPE and mocked those who knew there was? Doesn't make it gospel, DfT haven't set up an office inside GTR (yet, maybe)

Mr Miles also insisted that there would be no new EMUs for Northern when Porterbrook placed the order for 20 extra 387s. He was happy to accept that 387s replacing 365s and 365s going to Northern to replace 323s was a possibility but not new EMUs at Northern.

He does have access to information that most people do not but other times he has to use his own knowledge to try and work out the available possibilities which aren't always correct as DfT can be a bit unpredictable.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

As a fellow regular listener to BBC Radio 4 who actually heard this broadcast, the matter of those Whitehall hands actually pulling the strings in this dispute still seems lost on some contributors to this thread. As such, what Tony Miles said above is a true summation of matters, whether people like it or not.

At some point, however, this DfT push to get DOO spread further will cause a sharp drop in usage and hence in revenue as a result of the disruption. When this stage is reached, is it not likely that the Treasury will intervene within Whitehall against the DfT on account of the resulting loss of revenue?

I can't imagine that the DfT got the Treasury to agree up front to what would effectively be a blank cheque in this matter...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Dearie me, listen to it if you haven't already. I heard it at the time and she sounded for all the world like someone who didn't totally get it and whose strings were being pulled.

I caught the tail end of this broadcast and didn't realise it was Dyan Crowther (GTR's COO).
She is a seriously capable railway person; her previous job was as MD of NR's LNW Route (ie she ran the WCML).
She is nobody's puppet.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I caught the tail end of this broadcast and didn't realise it was Dyan Crowther (GTR's COO).
She is a seriously capable railway person; her previous job was as MD of NR's LNW Route (ie she ran the WCML).
She is nobody's puppet.

Obviously she is now out of her sphere of competence.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Obviously she is now out of her sphere of competence.

Indeed. A quick look at her (publicly available) employment history suggests that she has spent most of her career in infrastructure or station management. Her spell as COO of Arriva Trains Northern (one of the worst franchises so far) was for a matter of months only.

 

[Robertj21a]

At some point, however, this DfT push to get DOO spread further will cause a sharp drop in usage and hence in revenue as a result of the disruption. When this stage is reached, is it not likely that the Treasury will intervene within Whitehall against the DfT on account of the resulting loss of revenue?

I can't imagine that the DfT got the Treasury to agree up front to what would effectively be a blank cheque in this matter...

So, which other TOC would be more successful in getting the problem resolved to the satisfaction of the DfT ?

 

[WatcherZero]

At some point, however, this DfT push to get DOO spread further will cause a sharp drop in usage and hence in revenue as a result of the disruption. When this stage is reached, is it not likely that the Treasury will intervene within Whitehall against the DfT on account of the resulting loss of revenue?

I can't imagine that the DfT got the Treasury to agree up front to what would effectively be a blank cheque in this matter...

More likely to intervene to force a national settlement on DOO, one big battle rather than a dozen small ones. Similar to the junior doctors strike.

 

[jon0844]

At Finsbury Park today, there was a recorded apology for the trains that will be cancelled tomorrow due to staff shortages, and that buses will be running throughout the network (not exclusively, but rather meaning no part of the route will be unaffected).

It said to check for details on the website, but I think once people hear about buses they'll decide it's easier to just not travel. Such announcements must be a great way for the the Government to make money on this contract - as I can't see who would travel if they didn't have to.

It did then add that passengers can claim using Delay Repay, but I wonder how many would?

 

[petersi]

Looks like half of the Cambridge slows after mid day
13:05
15:05
16:05
17:05
20:05
22:05

Not a useful service