Are GTR finished?

[Domh245]

You have to ask why Govia bother for such a small margin. Loads of reputational risk (as we see currently) and almost nothing by way of financial gain.

Future preference from the DfT in other franchises, perhaps specifically for those where there are 'Modernisation Plans' that the government wants to introduce.

 

[paul1609]

Southern/Thameslink is a management contract because no private concern is going to underwrite the possible disruption during the Thameslink works.
Revenue risk is entirely with the DFT. GTR are receiving a management fee.
Some people fail to understand that DOO of Red trains as opposed to grey trains or green trains operated by the ex Grey trains brand and associated stake action is entirely underwritten by the DFT.

 

[tsr]

A single bus? I thought trains through the night were usually pretty well loaded?

Would that have been sufficient, or have the problems made people decide not to travel on their trains?

Depends where they are, and the day of the week. Between Gatwick Airport and London most people seem to use Southern overnight; this is partly because Southern often run their services just ahead of those of Thameslink, and partly because those serve more residential areas and travel near to West End venues. St Pancras - Bedford and vice versa is only served overnight by Thameslink, but most of the time there are other options South of there.

 

[WatcherZero]

Southern/Thameslink is a management contract because no private concern is going to underwrite the possible disruption during the Thameslink works.
Revenue risk is entirely with the DFT. GTR are receiving a management fee.
Some people fail to understand that DOO of Red trains as opposed to grey trains or green trains operated by the ex Grey trains brand and associated stake action is entirely underwritten by the DFT.

Revenue risk is with the Dft but management risk isn't, they are getting a fixed just over £8bn fee and their margin has fallen because of the extra costs of unofficial strikes.

 

[Carlisle]

I've repeatedly asked you the same question, which you seem determined to evade.

Given that GTR have stated they were changing the posts to OBS regardless of what anyone said, what should the RMT have done differently in their dealings with .

At the start of this dispute Southern clearly stated they had only opted to make the role redundant following the RMTs refusal to cooperate or negotiate, obviously with the revealing of various communications since , this position had obviously been anticipated well in advance of that time though,

 

[3141]

Future preference from the DfT in other franchises, perhaps specifically for those where there are 'Modernisation Plans' that the government wants to introduce.

Do you mean that the DfT might award a franchise to GoVia even though theirs wasn't the strongest bid?

After the Inter City West Coast events in 2012, I should think the DfT would be most anxious to avoid any future legal challenge.

 

[455driver]

Revenue risk is with the Dft but management risk isn't, they are getting a fixed just over £8bn fee and their margin has fallen because of the extra costs of unofficial strikes.

Pray tell what 'unofficial strikes' would they be?
I am aware that any guards who took part in the (official) strikes are not allowed to work any rest days and I am also aware that lots of drivers have decided that they dont want to work any rest days either, but I am not aware of any 'unofficial strikes' taking place!

Southern have decreed that any guard going sick has to provide a Doctors note from day one so it isnt possible to 'do a sicky' any more.

Or are you saying that any member of staff deciding not to work over or work their rest days (the clue in in the 'rest' part) is 'unofficial strike' action?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At the start of this dispute Southern clearly stated they had only opted to make the role redundant following the RMTs refusal to cooperate or negotiate, obviously with the revealing of various communications since , this position had obviously been anticipated well in advance of that time though,

Got a link to any official documents for that, I mean GTR can say anything they like, truth isnt always included is it!

 

[jon0844]

I think you might be a teeny bit pedantic there! I think you could call it a protest.

Clearly it isn't a strike. You can't strike, officially or unofficially, if you're not working in the first place.

Now offering to work the rest days then not turning up would be a different story. And offering to work and then going sick would also be somewhat underhand, if it's happening.

The latter could be considered an unofficial strike perhaps.

 

[Wolfie]

Future preference from the DfT in other franchises, perhaps specifically for those where there are 'Modernisation Plans' that the government wants to introduce.

Even if GTR had been a shining success, which is FAR from the case, standard competition rules would explicitly stop such preference on risk of serious litigation against DfT by other bidders - after the WCML debacle methinks not.....

Do you mean that the DfT might award a franchise to GoVia even though theirs wasn't the strongest bid?

After the Inter City West Coast events in 2012, I should think the DfT would be most anxious to avoid any future legal challenge.

Absolutely!

 

[BestWestern]

I think you might be a teeny bit pedantic there! I think you could call it a protest.

Clearly it isn't a strike. You can't strike, officially or unofficially, if you're not working in the first place.

Now offering to work the rest days then not turning up would be a different story. And offering to work and then going sick would also be somewhat underhand, if it's happening.

The latter could be considered an unofficial strike perhaps.

They can't offer to work rest days as GTR has banned them from doing it. And going sick now requires a GP's note, which means anybody off sick needs to be off long enough to obtain said note; if they return to work after a few days they won't get paid. So the odd cheeky 'sick day' is not an option, unless people are going to string it out for a week or more.

All of the above is irrelevant however, they're cancelling trains even when the crew are sitting in a depot ready to go. They don't care, they are doing it intentionally. Partly in a cynical attempt to persuade the public they'd be better off without Guards, and partly becausr the DfT is their master and has pretty much told them to do whatever the hell they like without consequence.

 

[Wolfie]

They can't offer to work rest days as GTR has banned them from doing it. And going sick now requires a GP's note, which means anybody off sick needs to be off long enough to obtain said note; if they return to work after a few days they won't get paid. So the odd cheeky 'sick day' is not an option, unless people are going to string it out for a week or more.

All of the above is irrelevant however, they're cancelling trains even when the crew are sitting in a depot ready to go. They don't care, they are doing it intentionally. Partly in a cynical attempt to persuade the public they'd be better off without Guards, and partly becausr the DfT is their master and has pretty much told them to do whatever the hell they like without consequence.

my bold

Perhaps someone needs to get a tv journalist into a crew room to see and film that or to film it themselves and pass it to the media .. believe me there are enough peed off passengers that MPs, even of the current governing party, WOULD have to respond to the resultant pressure...

Editted to add:
Of course if someone was feeling brave they could report this deception to GTR top management using the "whistleblower" provisions. If nothing was done as a result they could then go public - any attempt to sack them as a result would start a firestorm that would crucify GTR...

 

[Deepgreen]

my bold

Perhaps someone needs to get a tv journalist into a crew room to see and film that or to film it themselves and pass it to the media .. believe me there are enough peed off passengers that MPs, even of the current governing party, WOULD have to respond to the resultant pressure...

Editted to add:
Of course if someone was feeling brave they could report this deception to GTR top management using the "whistleblower" provisions. If nothing was done as a result they could then go public - any attempt to sack them as a result would start a firestorm that would crucify GTR...

I'm sure the 'Evening Standard' would take a great interest in any sensibly-managed 'leak' of facts about crews being available for trains that are nevertheless still cancelled. There would need to be clear proof in order to make a strong case.

 

[455driver]

I think you might be a teeny bit pedantic there! I think you could call it a protest.

Clearly it isn't a strike. You can't strike, officially or unofficially, if you're not working in the first place.

Now offering to work the rest days then not turning up would be a different story. And offering to work and then going sick would also be somewhat underhand, if it's happening.

The latter could be considered an unofficial strike perhaps.

How is questioning 'unofficial strike action' being pedantic?
Using your logic I am always in protest because I dont work rest days!

It was the person posting such drivel who was being disingenuous to try and paint the staff in a bad light, I just took them to task about their 'statement', you obviously dont like that fact and just see it that the staff should roll over and be thankful they have been offered alternative (short term) employment instead of redundancy!

 

[cjmillsnun]

At the start of this dispute Southern clearly stated they had only opted to make the role redundant following the RMTs refusal to cooperate or negotiate, obviously with the revealing of various communications since , this position had obviously been anticipated well in advance of that time though,

Ahhh so GTR's word is gospel is it? There are two sides to every story. :roll: GTR went in to this with the attitude that they wouldn't negotiate (made clear in their letter to staff saying that there was no point striking because they were going to do this anyway) so it would seem to me that the RMT had nothing that they could negotiate.

 

[talldave]

They can't offer to work rest days as GTR has banned them from doing it. And going sick now requires a GP's note, which means anybody off sick needs to be off long enough to obtain said note; if they return to work after a few days they won't get paid. So the odd cheeky 'sick day' is not an option, unless people are going to string it out for a week or more.

Southern's twitter feed denies the rest day working ban exists. Someone's telly porkies!

 

[northwichcat]

Well, they've already breached their franchise/management contract agreements, so in theory they should already have gone.

So if they delayed the implementation of DCO/DOO they should be in theory be stripped of the franchise for breaching their franchise agreement so that DOR can take over the franchise and ensure DCO/DOO is put back on schedule?

 

[blotred]

The interview with the Rail minister by the Argus makes me think GTR are going nowhere :/

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/14557427.Rail_Minister__Unions_are_launching_a_war_on_passengers/

 

[Envy123]

Experiencing the delays on the GN route as well. :/

There's at least one delay and one cancellation on New Southgate departures right now, but thankfully, I have the choice of using LU to go to the City today should things go pear-shaped (I genuinely feel sorry for those who have to use GTR).

From personal experience, yes, FCC was better than this despite their flaws.

 

[jon0844]

Using your logic I am always in protest because I dont work rest days!

No, because you'd know the reasons for doing so. Not wanting to work because you don't fancy it, or not wanting to do 'stick it to management'.

Of course, nobody else could tell!

 

[physics34]

The interview with the Rail minister by the Argus makes me think GTR are going nowhere :/

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/14557427.Rail_Minister__Unions_are_launching_a_war_on_passengers/

pretty much announced last week by the DfT in response to a petition.

Tough times ahead til 2018. Things WILL improve then, there is no doubt, but should passengers have to put up with this for the next 2 years? !

 

[Hadders]

So if they delayed the implementation of DCO/DOO they should be in theory be stripped of the franchise for breaching their franchise agreement so that DOR can take over the franchise and ensure DCO/DOO is put back on schedule?

I don't think DOR could take over - I believe they've been wound up.

 

[55003]

http://www.brightonandhovenews.org/...ocument-that-proves-southern-banned-overtime/

Is GTR's story starting to unravel??

 

[thelem]

Surely this all really depends on the drivers. GTR say they will be introducing DOO in August. When that happens, the guards can strike all they like, but the trains will still run (and lets be honest, this strike is really about guards losing the power to strike). GTW can weather the storm for a couple of months, if the drivers don't cause too many problems. Then it will just be poor reliability of new trains and the london bridge work to cause disruption.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Surely this all really depends on the drivers. GTR say they will be introducing DOO in August. When that happens, the guards can strike all they like, but the trains will still run (and lets be honest, this strike is really about guards losing the power to strike). GTW can weather the storm for a couple of months, if the drivers don't cause too many problems. Then it will just be poor reliability of new trains and the london bridge work to cause disruption.

The London Bridge works are not , as I understand , an issue in train service performance under normal operating (i.e no infrastructure problems) - I stand , of course , to be corrected.

Summer Holiday leave periods for drivers , of course , beckons.

 

[physics34]

Surely this all really depends on the drivers. GTR say they will be introducing DOO in August. When that happens, the guards can strike all they like, but the trains will still run (and lets be honest, this strike is really about guards losing the power to strike). GTW can weather the storm for a couple of months, if the drivers don't cause too many problems. Then it will just be poor reliability of new trains and the london bridge work to cause disruption.

Dont believe Network Rail has approved new DOO routes yet, so i doubt AUgust.

 

[Class377/5]

Dont believe Network Rail has approved new DOO routes yet, so i doubt AUgust.

DOO routes have nothing to do with NR, its down to the TOC/Unions/DfT. Especially as new trains have cameras and don't require any infrastructure input (at present).

 

[redbutton]

DOO routes have nothing to do with NR, its down to the TOC/Unions/DfT. Especially as new trains have cameras and don't require any infrastructure input (at present).

Network Rail publishes a list of DOO(P) cleared routes in the Sectional Appendix; to change them would require their input.

Driver Only Operation (Passenger) - Cleared Routes -
Sussex
Victoria and Brighton
London Bridge and Windmill Bridge Jn
South Croydon and Sanderstead
Sydenham and Crystal Palace
Battersea Pier Jn and Pouparts Jn via Stewarts Lane
Battersea Park and Peckham Rye (Atlantic Lines)
Balham and Beckenham Jn
Leigham Jn and Tulse Hill
Bromley Jn and Norwood Jn
Streatham North Jn and Streatham South Jn
Selhurst Jn and Gloucester Road Jn
Purley and Caterham
Purley and Tattenham Corner
South Bermondsey Jn and Dorking
Herne Hill and Tulse Hill
Tulse Hill and West Norwood Jn
Streatham and Streatham Common
Norwood Jn and Epsom Downs
Streatham South Jn and Sutton via Wimbledon
Three Bridges and Crawley (Down Line Only)
Keymer Jn. and Lewes (includes movements reversing at position light signal 58)
Brighton and Lewes (includes movements reversing at position light signal 58)
Latchmere No. 1 Jn to Clapham Jn
Latchmere No. 2 Jn to Clapham Jn
Note
The method of despatch of DOO(P) trains at Epsom, in the Up direction, will be by the use of CD/RA
indicators.
South East (Kent, Sussex, Wessex) Territory GI - Dated: 16/09/13

There also has to be a risk assessment done and agreed before each station's dispatch plan can be amended to allow self-dispatch from unstaffed stations. (Or at least there is supposed to be one if they honour the contract, which is now questionable after the 12-car dispute.)

Not all guards will become OBS this summer, since it will take time to get the routes cleared.

 

[IanXC]

Richard Westcott has picked up the story, and this has been published on the BBC website this morning.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36539137

Interestingly includes:

The Rail Minister Claire Perry has waded in, telling the BBC that it amounts to unofficial action, staff effectively "working to rule", which she says is "outrageous and unfair".
The RMT is rubbishing her claims and says it has examples of the company cancelling trains even when staff are available.
This is something GTR denies, saying it pays a financial penalty for every cancellation so why would it bother.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Richard Westcott has picked up the story, and this has been published on the BBC website this morning.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36539137

Interestingly includes:

Working to rule is outrageous and unfair? Well that's a new one then. It's outrageous and unfair to fulfill your contract. Erm, thanks?

 

[northwichcat]

Working to rule is outrageous and unfair? Well that's a new one then. It's outrageous and unfair to fulfill your contract. Erm, thanks?

Outrageous working to rule as MPs don't have rules to work to - they can not turn up for votes and don't get disciplined for not spending at least 1/2 day a week in their constituency, despite them having time in their working week to do that.