Are these really network rail personnel?

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fsmr

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On our (non railway) construction site. 80% are eastern European admitted though no Romanians.
welders, electricians etc etc many with orange Hi Viz rather than yellow as that is the standard in Europe for construction. Company names on the back such as xxxxx cabling contractors or xxx fiber networks and all talking in their native tongue

Any of these spotted track side by the passing Joe public would look perfectly legit. It is the same with these low life taking out telephone cables and cutting whole villages off. If you look the part, no one will phone up to report it for fear of looking stupid

It would certainly help in reporting suspicious activity arround the railway if all vehicles on the infrastructure were corporate rather than plain white transits with the ubiquitous amber lamp but there are not enough to go around for that
That said, it isnt hard to put fake magnetic signs on a plain white van
 
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BRX

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It is a fact that there are a considerable number of Eastern European criminals in the UK, many from Romania for example, were prisoners who were released by the Government and effectively deported to the UK.

There is a serious and growing issue with criminal gangs made up from Eastern Europeans. This is a fact and stating this does not constitute "Racism" in any way whatsoever. What I find deeply worrying is your rush to play the race card.

Whilst there are certainly a good percentage of Eastern Europeans who contribute to the UK, it is a fact that there is still a large group who are engaged in Criminality on a serious scale.

Can you clarify a bit what exactly you are saying here please.

You are using the word "fact" rather a lot but following it up with some very vague statements.

1) You talk about a "considerable number of Eastern European criminals" and "a serious and growing issue with criminal gangs made up from Eastern Europeans". What do you mean by "considerable" and "serious"? What proportion of crime committed in the UK is carried out by Eastern Europeans rather than anyone else, and at what rate is it growing?

2) Then you talk about a "large group [of Eastern Europeans] who are engaged in Criminality on a serious scale" suggesting that there is a significant proportion of Eastern Europeans involved in serious crime, and a proportion greater than amongst other nationalities.

Can you give me some numbers or other kind of objective evidence for what you're saying? Otherwise the assumption has to be that you are just repeating hearsay, not "fact" as you claim.

Finally, can you clarify what this has to do with railway cable theft. Do I understand correctly that you are saying a disproportionate amount of cable theft is carried out a) by organised gangs and b) by Eastern Europeans? Correct me if I have understood you wrongly.
 

tony_mac

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From the figures I could find, the number of convictions in 2010 based on nationality, compared to ONS estimated population (by country of birth) was roughly (for just a few countries)

Romania 5.5%
Lithuania 4.8%
Poland 1.2%
England&Wales 0.6%
Germany 0.1%
 

Old Timer

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Finally, can you clarify what this has to do with railway cable theft. Do I understand correctly that you are saying a disproportionate amount of cable theft is carried out a) by organised gangs and b) by Eastern Europeans? Correct me if I have understood you wrongly.
Could YOU please clarify what this has to do with cable theft ?

It appeared that the OP made a judgement about some people based at least partly on their supposed nationality, because of some probably unfounded perception that "Eastern Europeans" walking around on the railway are more likely to be looking for metal to steal, than to be there as part of their work.

Does it matter if the OP contacted the BTP as a result of seeing people behaving suspiciously? No.

Does it matter if the OP makes judgements about people based on their perceived nationality? Well, it could matter to the people of those nationalities, if they are constantly subjected to unreasonable suspicion while going about their daily duties.

It doesn't mean the OP is a terrible person, but maybe some gentle questioning when such comments are made could make them think about these questions, and maybe in some small way that could make life a little easier for those of other nationalities working in the UK who are fed up of being treated in a certain way because of rumours and hearsay about what other people of their nationality may or may not be getting up to.
 

BRX

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Not quite sure what you're getting at - my comments were based on the comment in the first post:

Been hearing some stuff about Romanian gangs nicking stuff from the railways.
Which seems to me to clearly referring to cable (or other metal) theft because I'm not quite sure what else they would be nicking from the railways.
 

Old Timer

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Not quite sure what you're getting at - my comments were based on the comment in the first post:



Which seems to me to clearly referring to cable (or other metal) theft because I'm not quite sure what else they would be nicking from the railways.
Your post then went on to suggest that the OP was making judgements based upon their nationalities, which in effect is setting the scene to suggest the OP was being racist. This aspect was identified by a number of people.

That was not the case, but it is the normal method used by those who see "racism" in everything, or certainly look for it.

There IS a serious issue with Eastern Eurpoean criminality as Tony_Mac has shown, so therefore the OP was correct to be more suspicious - as anyone in the Industry would tend to be.

This is not racism simply people using judgement beased upon circumstance. Its called "profiling" and is used in the airline Industry as well as by the security services, and it has prevented a number of serious attacks on this Country.
 

ralphchadkirk

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The number of foreign nationals in prison has decreased steadily since 2006 from 14% to 12.9%.
At 30 September 2011 there were 11,076 foreign nationals in prisons in England and Wales from 225 different countries. Ten of these countries accounted for one-half of the foreign nationals in prisons. Jamaica, the Irish Republic and Poland are the countries with the most nationals in prison establishments.
Source: HoC Library, report SN/SG/4334 7th November 2011
 

BRX

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There IS a serious issue with Eastern Eurpoean criminality as Tony_Mac has shown,
This has not been shown. Tony_mac has posted some figures, with no link to where he got them from or what exactly they relate to. These figures also need to be compared with statistics relating to the number of Eastern Europeans legitimately working on the railways before we can come to any conclusions about how rational the "profiling" you mention is.

You seem confident about your "facts" - surely it should therefore be easy for you to back them up with properly referenced figures.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But is still higher than it was in 2005.

Conviction figures come from the ACPO, via the Telegraph, population estimates from the ONS.


Could you give me a link to the specific article please?
 

Old Timer

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This has not been shown. Tony_mac has posted some figures, with no link to where he got them from or what exactly they relate to. These figures also need to be compared with statistics relating to the number of Eastern Europeans legitimately working on the railways before we can come to any conclusions about how rational the "profiling" you mention is.

You seem confident about your "facts" - surely it should therefore be easy for you to back them up with properly referenced figures.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




Could you give me a link to the specific article please?
I suggest you do your own research and look at the Home Office website.
 

BRX

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You're the one making the assertions and you also claim already to have done the research so it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask that you convey the information you have based those assertions on.

I know what it usually means when people make statements about "facts" then refuse to clarify or back them up with evidence.

But maybe if I have time later I will see what I can find.
 

Trog

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I know what it usually means when people make statements about "facts" then refuse to clarify or back them up with evidence.

That they can not be bothered to look it all up again. For people too lazy to go to the Home Office site and check it out either way for themselves? :lol:
 

Maxfly

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You're the one making the assertions and you also claim already to have done the research so it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask that you convey the information you have based those assertions on.

I know what it usually means when people make statements about "facts" then refuse to clarify or back them up with evidence.

But maybe if I have time later I will see what I can find.
While you seem to be happy trying to incite racial hatred??
 

Maxfly

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How exactly is BRX 'inciting racial hatred'?
By his questioning the OP's post, insinuating it had racial overtones he has in fact incited racial tensions (hatred probably a bit strong lol). Which for an original post (OP's) which had no racial conotations at all was, in my view unneccessary and was purely stirring things up. Any to and fro-ing now about which nationality is prime cable theft suspect or are we pigeon holing or mistreating and other ethnic origins was not brought on by the OP but by BRX.
 

BRX

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While you seem to be happy trying to incite racial hatred??
You what?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ok, so tony_mac and old timer were unable or unwilling to back up their statements with any referenced figures, so I tried to find some myself. I haven't yet been able to find any specific numbers on types of crimes committed in the UK by those of Eastern European origin. Here are a few things I have found though.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/apr/16/immigrationpolicy.immigration
A wide-ranging police study has concluded that the surge in immigrants from eastern Europe to Britain has not fuelled a rise in crime, the Guardian has learned.
The report finds that, despite newspaper headlines linking new migrants to crime, offending rates among mainly Polish, Romanian and Bulgarian communities are in line with the rate of offending in the general population.

A senior source with close knowledge of the report said: "Any rise has been broadly proportionate to the number of people from those communities coming into this country. People are saying crime is rising because of this influx. Given 1 million people have come in, that doesn't make sense as crime is significantly down."

The fall in the annual crime rate in England and Wales is accelerating, with a drop of 9% recorded by police in the year to September 2007, according to Home Office figures published earlier this year.
From Commons Select Committee on metal thefts affecting the railways:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmtran/uc1609-i/uc160901.htm
Chief Constable Paul Crowther talking about who actually commits railway metal theft:
probably only about 30% maximum involves organised crime. The vast majority of offenders are local offenders.
we talk about the spread of what are largely opportunist thieves
And here's some reading on what some Eastern Europeans experience whilst in the UK:
http://www.irr.org.uk/2011/may/ha000023.html
According to the organisation Human Rights First, 'attacks on Poles, Lithuanians, and other immigrants from the new E.U. member states [have become] a major new component of hate crime violence' in the UK. The police in some areas, have been prompted to set up specialist reporting mechanisms to try to increase the number of offences reported to them.[2] Questions have been raised, however, about the effectiveness of the police and their role. In Belfast for example, in 2009, over 100 Romanians were forced to take shelter in a church after a systematic campaign of racist violence against them during which criminal justice agencies were, at best, slow to respond.[3]

The backdrop to this violence has been a vitriolic tabloid campaign about the presence of those from the 'new' EU countries that has linked their presence to increased criminal activity and disorder, breakdowns in local cohesion and increased social and economic costs. The Daily Mail alone has kept up a persistent series of stories, year on year, which have accused eastern European migrants of exploiting supposedly generous welfare entitlements,[4] said that they add pressure to particular services in the NHS,[5] suggested that they are responsible for increased crime rates in the UK,[6] argued that their presence prevents British workers from finding employment[7] and, in one case, reported that they are 'pillaging' British rivers of fish and swans for food.[8] In 2008, the paper was forced to remove some of its articles about Polish people from its website after the Press Complaints Commission intervened.[9]

If I google "eastern european gangs metal theft" or similar I get a string of Daily Mail articles, with headlines alleging as much but very little in the article to actually back it up. Oh and a link to stormfront, the white supremacist discussion forum.
 

Maxfly

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You what?



I what? Lol! You serious? It was your waffle That started off any problems where you insinuated that the op had racism in his first post, now stop and tell me now if that is not case? The rest of the waffle and facts and figure throwing was brought on by you, not the op!
You want to stir up any more problems regarding to Race and creed start your own thread. Nothing bores me more than some tool playing race cards like you started of doing at the beginning of this thread, if there was genuine racism there, hell I would be agreeing with you 100%, but there was not so your post was Severely off topic at the least! Anyway my own waffle has tired me oot so aff for some z's. Gnite :)
 
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BRX

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I'd like you to explain what you mean by "waffle" exactly. Perhaps you could highlight what, specifically, I have said that you think is "waffle".
 

bb21

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I think accusing BRX of "inciting racial hatred/tensions" is a bit wide of the mark. He has put his arguments across, which we might or might not agree with. I struggle to understand how he is stirring up tensions. A topic involving discussion about immigrants is bound to get a little heated everytime it comes up. It does not mean that he is causing problems in the race relations area.

For the record, I don't agree that the OP's post carried any racial connotations, for reasons already stated by other contributors.

Let me decode one of the articles quoted, which will serve as a good example of how sometimes the same statistics can be used and presented in support of a point of view, whichever side of the argument one might be on.

A senior source with close knowledge of the report said: "Any rise has been broadly proportionate to the number of people from those communities coming into this country.
Fair enough, so the crime rate is no higher amongst people from East European communities than other communities.

People are saying crime is rising because of this influx. Given 1 million people have come in, that doesn't make sense as crime is significantly down."
If 1 million people have come in, surely that means there is an increase in the number of criminal incidents, if crime rates stay the same, as the base population is now bigger? This increase in the absolute number of incidents can be attributed to the influx of immigrants, depending on which angle you look at it from. Using the percentage rate and the absolute number can lead down two completely different paths.

The fall in the annual crime rate in England and Wales is accelerating, with a drop of 9% recorded by police in the year to September 2007, according to Home Office figures published earlier this year.
Even if the crime rate is down, given the increase in population, the crime figures might well have still risen. These two things don't contradict each other.

So the conclusion drawn by the report is nonsense. You cannot draw any conclusion from these statistics.

I have no desire to get involved in this debate about crime rates and the Eastern European communities, as I don't know either way what the reality is. However I will point out very strongly that sometimes reports have to be taken with a pinch of salt as shown above, and this applies to both sides of the argument.
 

BRX

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If 1 million people have come in, surely that means there is an increase in the number of criminal incidents, if crime rates stay the same, as the base population is now bigger? This increase in the absolute number of incidents can be attributed to the influx of immigrants, depending on which angle you look at it from. Using the percentage rate and the absolute number can lead down two completely different paths.



Even if the crime rate is down, given the increase in population, the crime figures might well have still risen. These two things don't contradict each other.

So the conclusion drawn by the report is nonsense. You cannot draw any conclusion from these statistics.
You're quite right that absolute and relative numbers are often confused in media reporting. The article is a little unclear but my understanding of what they are saying is that absolute amount of crime increased, but that can be attributed to a rise in population (and would be the case wherever the new population comes from) but that crime rate decreased, as in the amount of crime committed per head of population.

In other words there's nothing to suggest that the new immigrant population are committing any more crime, per head, than the rest of the population.

Unfortunately they don't link to the police report itself and I couldn't find it online anywhere.
 

Maxfly

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Would you have been suspicious if you hadn't thought they were "Eastern Europeans"?
What proportion of railway metal thefts are carried out by "Eastern Europeans"?

...and while you're at it, what proportion of genuine railway workers are "Eastern Europeans"?
It appeared that the OP made a judgement about some people based at least partly on their supposed nationality, because of some probably unfounded perception that "Eastern Europeans" walking around on the railway are more likely to be looking for metal to steal, than to be there as part of their work.

Does it matter if the OP contacted the BTP as a result of seeing people behaving suspiciously? No.

Does it matter if the OP makes judgements about people based on their perceived nationality? Well, it could matter to the people of those nationalities, if they are constantly subjected to unreasonable suspicion while going about their daily duties.

It doesn't mean the OP is a terrible person, but maybe some gentle questioning when such comments are made could make them think about these questions, and maybe in some small way that could make life a little easier for those of other nationalities working in the UK who are fed up of being treated in a certain way because of rumours and hearsay about what other people of their nationality may or may not be getting up to.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Oh well! That's OK then! No need to question it.

Did you hear that most Irish people are a bit stupid by the way?


Your waffle is above. There was no grounds whatsoever for any mention of racism or prejudice so therefore you were stirring things up for no reason, yep my comments about inciting racial hatred etc were wide of mark but were no more wide of the mark and pointless than brx's above

:)
 
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BRX

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Your waffle is above. There was no grounds whatsoever for any mention of racism or prejudice so therefore you were stirring things up for no reason, yep my comments about inciting racial hatred etc were wide of mark but were no more wide of the mark and pointless than brx's above

:)
So, you believe that prejudice against eastern europeans living in the UK is a complete non-issue?
 

Maxfly

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So, you believe that prejudice against eastern europeans living in the UK is a complete non-issue?
Not all, that is not the point here. The point is that the original post had no inkling whatsoever of any prejudice against anyone, if the op had even maybe wrote "those eastern Europeans" you would have had grounds for starting questioning the op, but he did not write anything that anyone of sound mind could construe as prejudiced.

You could have easily started your own thread on prejudices but instead you hijacked the op's for your own agenda IMO :)
 

BRX

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Not all, that is not the point here. The point is that the original post had no inkling whatsoever of any prejudice against anyone, if the op had even maybe wrote "those eastern Europeans" you would have had grounds for starting questioning the op, but he did not write anything that anyone of sound mind could construe as prejudiced.

You could have easily started your own thread on prejudices but instead you hijacked the op's for your own agenda IMO :)
Here's the original post:

Hi all, I watched a couple of railway workers today near my house and a couple of things seemed a bit off to me. Any info anybody could supply would be much appreciated. I'll just ask direct questions rather than write a giant explanation.

Do Network Rail employ eastern Europeans? (initially drew my attention because they were speaking a language that sounded like russian or polish)

They were walking along the track making notes.

They seemed to be more interested in the houses than anything to do with the railway.

Been hearing some stuff about Romanian gangs nicking stuff from the railways.

How easy is it to get the orange kit? I gather it could be stolen or reproduced easily enough.

I know I sound a bit over-cautious but I trust my gut and this was strange.

Thanks.
He says he's heard stuff about Romanian gangs nicking stuff from the railways, and he's asked if NR employ eastern Europeans.

His suspicions about the people he saw are very clearly related to their nationality and what he's heard about romanian gangs.

Let's consider two possible scenarios:
A: Network Rail doesn't employ eastern Europeans, and there is a really big problem with Romanian gangs nicking from the railways.
B: Network Rail does employ eastern Europeans, and there is a big problem with stuff being nicked from the railways, but the people nicking it are not predominantly Romanians.

Do you disagree that if B reflects the reality, then it is reasonable to question people who believe A to reflect reality?
 

tempests1

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With reference to HV work clothing that must show the employer's logo. I worked with an Agency Lookout once that had a NWR HV polo Shirt, A Dyer & Butler Jacket, & for good measure a Balfour Beatty White hard hat! He wasn't anyone dodgy just picked up a lot of kit along the way.
 

ole man

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Im not a jobsworth but if he turned up dressed like that he would be sent home, everybody on the railway know the rules, i never have any problems with that because i make them sure they know.
 

Maxfly

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Here's the original post:



He says he's heard stuff about Romanian gangs nicking stuff from the railways, and he's asked if NR employ eastern Europeans.

His suspicions about the people he saw are very clearly related to their nationality and what he's heard about romanian gangs.

Let's consider two possible scenarios:
A: Network Rail doesn't employ eastern Europeans, and there is a really big problem with Romanian gangs nicking from the railways.
B: Network Rail does employ eastern Europeans, and there is a big problem with stuff being nicked from the railways, but the people nicking it are not predominantly Romanians.

Do you disagree that if B reflects the reality, then it is reasonable to question people who believe A to reflect reality?
The opay have a slight lack of knowledge about if networkrail employ eastern Europeans, but that does not put him in A tbh. Yes statement B is the correct one but round wishaw for example it is not eastern europeans you would be listening out for but your common garden neds, if the op had stated, for example that they had strong weegie accents would you have went on the same direction with your questioning of him?
 
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