Are these really network rail personnel?

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by iwannaknow, 17 Nov 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. fsmr

    fsmr Member

    Messages:
    659
    Joined:
    11 Feb 2009
    On our (non railway) construction site. 80% are eastern European admitted though no Romanians.
    welders, electricians etc etc many with orange Hi Viz rather than yellow as that is the standard in Europe for construction. Company names on the back such as xxxxx cabling contractors or xxx fiber networks and all talking in their native tongue

    Any of these spotted track side by the passing Joe public would look perfectly legit. It is the same with these low life taking out telephone cables and cutting whole villages off. If you look the part, no one will phone up to report it for fear of looking stupid

    It would certainly help in reporting suspicious activity arround the railway if all vehicles on the infrastructure were corporate rather than plain white transits with the ubiquitous amber lamp but there are not enough to go around for that
    That said, it isnt hard to put fake magnetic signs on a plain white van
     
  2. BRX

    BRX Established Member

    Messages:
    2,046
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008

    Can you clarify a bit what exactly you are saying here please.

    You are using the word "fact" rather a lot but following it up with some very vague statements.

    1) You talk about a "considerable number of Eastern European criminals" and "a serious and growing issue with criminal gangs made up from Eastern Europeans". What do you mean by "considerable" and "serious"? What proportion of crime committed in the UK is carried out by Eastern Europeans rather than anyone else, and at what rate is it growing?

    2) Then you talk about a "large group [of Eastern Europeans] who are engaged in Criminality on a serious scale" suggesting that there is a significant proportion of Eastern Europeans involved in serious crime, and a proportion greater than amongst other nationalities.

    Can you give me some numbers or other kind of objective evidence for what you're saying? Otherwise the assumption has to be that you are just repeating hearsay, not "fact" as you claim.

    Finally, can you clarify what this has to do with railway cable theft. Do I understand correctly that you are saying a disproportionate amount of cable theft is carried out a) by organised gangs and b) by Eastern Europeans? Correct me if I have understood you wrongly.
     
  3. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

    Messages:
    3,593
    Joined:
    25 Feb 2009
    Location:
    Liverpool
    From the figures I could find, the number of convictions in 2010 based on nationality, compared to ONS estimated population (by country of birth) was roughly (for just a few countries)

    Romania 5.5%
    Lithuania 4.8%
    Poland 1.2%
    England&Wales 0.6%
    Germany 0.1%
     
  4. BRX

    BRX Established Member

    Messages:
    2,046
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    Could you provide a link to where you got your figures please?
     
  5. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    Could YOU please clarify what this has to do with cable theft ?

     
  6. BRX

    BRX Established Member

    Messages:
    2,046
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    Not quite sure what you're getting at - my comments were based on the comment in the first post:

    Which seems to me to clearly referring to cable (or other metal) theft because I'm not quite sure what else they would be nicking from the railways.
     
  7. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    Your post then went on to suggest that the OP was making judgements based upon their nationalities, which in effect is setting the scene to suggest the OP was being racist. This aspect was identified by a number of people.

    That was not the case, but it is the normal method used by those who see "racism" in everything, or certainly look for it.

    There IS a serious issue with Eastern Eurpoean criminality as Tony_Mac has shown, so therefore the OP was correct to be more suspicious - as anyone in the Industry would tend to be.

    This is not racism simply people using judgement beased upon circumstance. Its called "profiling" and is used in the airline Industry as well as by the security services, and it has prevented a number of serious attacks on this Country.
     
  8. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk Established Member

    Messages:
    5,764
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    Location:
    Essex
    The number of foreign nationals in prison has decreased steadily since 2006 from 14% to 12.9%.
    Source: HoC Library, report SN/SG/4334 7th November 2011
     
  9. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

    Messages:
    3,593
    Joined:
    25 Feb 2009
    Location:
    Liverpool
    But is still higher than it was in 2005.

    Conviction figures come from the ACPO, via the Telegraph, population estimates from the ONS.
     
  10. BRX

    BRX Established Member

    Messages:
    2,046
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    This has not been shown. Tony_mac has posted some figures, with no link to where he got them from or what exactly they relate to. These figures also need to be compared with statistics relating to the number of Eastern Europeans legitimately working on the railways before we can come to any conclusions about how rational the "profiling" you mention is.

    You seem confident about your "facts" - surely it should therefore be easy for you to back them up with properly referenced figures.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---


    Could you give me a link to the specific article please?
     
  11. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    I suggest you do your own research and look at the Home Office website.
     
  12. BRX

    BRX Established Member

    Messages:
    2,046
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    You're the one making the assertions and you also claim already to have done the research so it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask that you convey the information you have based those assertions on.

    I know what it usually means when people make statements about "facts" then refuse to clarify or back them up with evidence.

    But maybe if I have time later I will see what I can find.
     
  13. Trog

    Trog Established Member

    Messages:
    1,484
    Joined:
    30 Oct 2009

    That they can not be bothered to look it all up again. For people too lazy to go to the Home Office site and check it out either way for themselves? :lol:
     
  14. Maxfly

    Maxfly Member

    Messages:
    236
    Joined:
    9 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Scotland
    While you seem to be happy trying to incite racial hatred??
     
  15. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk Established Member

    Messages:
    5,764
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    Location:
    Essex
    How exactly is BRX 'inciting racial hatred'?
     
  16. Maxfly

    Maxfly Member

    Messages:
    236
    Joined:
    9 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Scotland
    By his questioning the OP's post, insinuating it had racial overtones he has in fact incited racial tensions (hatred probably a bit strong lol). Which for an original post (OP's) which had no racial conotations at all was, in my view unneccessary and was purely stirring things up. Any to and fro-ing now about which nationality is prime cable theft suspect or are we pigeon holing or mistreating and other ethnic origins was not brought on by the OP but by BRX.
     
  17. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,809
    Joined:
    30 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Milton Keynes
    Oh for God's sake.
     
  18. Maxfly

    Maxfly Member

    Messages:
    236
    Joined:
    9 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Scotland
    yep, as tedious and pointless as the brx trying to say racism was in the op's post. so what should have been a short thread with a couple of replies has grown into this pile of waffle :D
     
  19. BRX

    BRX Established Member

    Messages:
    2,046
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    You what?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Ok, so tony_mac and old timer were unable or unwilling to back up their statements with any referenced figures, so I tried to find some myself. I haven't yet been able to find any specific numbers on types of crimes committed in the UK by those of Eastern European origin. Here are a few things I have found though.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/apr/16/immigrationpolicy.immigration
    From Commons Select Committee on metal thefts affecting the railways:
    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmtran/uc1609-i/uc160901.htm
    Chief Constable Paul Crowther talking about who actually commits railway metal theft:
    And here's some reading on what some Eastern Europeans experience whilst in the UK:
    http://www.irr.org.uk/2011/may/ha000023.html

    If I google "eastern european gangs metal theft" or similar I get a string of Daily Mail articles, with headlines alleging as much but very little in the article to actually back it up. Oh and a link to stormfront, the white supremacist discussion forum.
     
  20. Maxfly

    Maxfly Member

    Messages:
    236
    Joined:
    9 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Scotland
     
    Last edited: 2 Dec 2011
  21. BRX

    BRX Established Member

    Messages:
    2,046
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    I'd like you to explain what you mean by "waffle" exactly. Perhaps you could highlight what, specifically, I have said that you think is "waffle".
     
  22. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    23,493
    Joined:
    4 Feb 2010
    I think accusing BRX of "inciting racial hatred/tensions" is a bit wide of the mark. He has put his arguments across, which we might or might not agree with. I struggle to understand how he is stirring up tensions. A topic involving discussion about immigrants is bound to get a little heated everytime it comes up. It does not mean that he is causing problems in the race relations area.

    For the record, I don't agree that the OP's post carried any racial connotations, for reasons already stated by other contributors.

    Let me decode one of the articles quoted, which will serve as a good example of how sometimes the same statistics can be used and presented in support of a point of view, whichever side of the argument one might be on.

    Fair enough, so the crime rate is no higher amongst people from East European communities than other communities.

    If 1 million people have come in, surely that means there is an increase in the number of criminal incidents, if crime rates stay the same, as the base population is now bigger? This increase in the absolute number of incidents can be attributed to the influx of immigrants, depending on which angle you look at it from. Using the percentage rate and the absolute number can lead down two completely different paths.

    Even if the crime rate is down, given the increase in population, the crime figures might well have still risen. These two things don't contradict each other.

    So the conclusion drawn by the report is nonsense. You cannot draw any conclusion from these statistics.

    I have no desire to get involved in this debate about crime rates and the Eastern European communities, as I don't know either way what the reality is. However I will point out very strongly that sometimes reports have to be taken with a pinch of salt as shown above, and this applies to both sides of the argument.
     
  23. BRX

    BRX Established Member

    Messages:
    2,046
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    You're quite right that absolute and relative numbers are often confused in media reporting. The article is a little unclear but my understanding of what they are saying is that absolute amount of crime increased, but that can be attributed to a rise in population (and would be the case wherever the new population comes from) but that crime rate decreased, as in the amount of crime committed per head of population.

    In other words there's nothing to suggest that the new immigrant population are committing any more crime, per head, than the rest of the population.

    Unfortunately they don't link to the police report itself and I couldn't find it online anywhere.
     
  24. Maxfly

    Maxfly Member

    Messages:
    236
    Joined:
    9 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Scotland


    Your waffle is above. There was no grounds whatsoever for any mention of racism or prejudice so therefore you were stirring things up for no reason, yep my comments about inciting racial hatred etc were wide of mark but were no more wide of the mark and pointless than brx's above

    :)
     
    Last edited: 2 Dec 2011
  25. BRX

    BRX Established Member

    Messages:
    2,046
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    So, you believe that prejudice against eastern europeans living in the UK is a complete non-issue?
     
  26. Maxfly

    Maxfly Member

    Messages:
    236
    Joined:
    9 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Scotland
    Not all, that is not the point here. The point is that the original post had no inkling whatsoever of any prejudice against anyone, if the op had even maybe wrote "those eastern Europeans" you would have had grounds for starting questioning the op, but he did not write anything that anyone of sound mind could construe as prejudiced.

    You could have easily started your own thread on prejudices but instead you hijacked the op's for your own agenda IMO :)
     
  27. BRX

    BRX Established Member

    Messages:
    2,046
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    Here's the original post:

    He says he's heard stuff about Romanian gangs nicking stuff from the railways, and he's asked if NR employ eastern Europeans.

    His suspicions about the people he saw are very clearly related to their nationality and what he's heard about romanian gangs.

    Let's consider two possible scenarios:
    A: Network Rail doesn't employ eastern Europeans, and there is a really big problem with Romanian gangs nicking from the railways.
    B: Network Rail does employ eastern Europeans, and there is a big problem with stuff being nicked from the railways, but the people nicking it are not predominantly Romanians.

    Do you disagree that if B reflects the reality, then it is reasonable to question people who believe A to reflect reality?
     
  28. tempests1

    tempests1 Member

    Messages:
    239
    Joined:
    3 Aug 2010
    Location:
    Haslemere
    With reference to HV work clothing that must show the employer's logo. I worked with an Agency Lookout once that had a NWR HV polo Shirt, A Dyer & Butler Jacket, & for good measure a Balfour Beatty White hard hat! He wasn't anyone dodgy just picked up a lot of kit along the way.
     
  29. ole man

    ole man Member

    Messages:
    738
    Joined:
    6 Jul 2011
    Location:
    LEC5
    Im not a jobsworth but if he turned up dressed like that he would be sent home, everybody on the railway know the rules, i never have any problems with that because i make them sure they know.
     
  30. Maxfly

    Maxfly Member

    Messages:
    236
    Joined:
    9 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Scotland
    The opay have a slight lack of knowledge about if networkrail employ eastern Europeans, but that does not put him in A tbh. Yes statement B is the correct one but round wishaw for example it is not eastern europeans you would be listening out for but your common garden neds, if the op had stated, for example that they had strong weegie accents would you have went on the same direction with your questioning of him?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page