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Arriva Rail North DOO

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Moonshot

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150's have the same door release buttons.

Its simply a case of rewiring them, and fitting body cameras.

Yours, someone who sits looking at said buttons most of the day.

Indeed, and it wasn't that long ago that I discovered that the buttons were active on one of the units I was working.

The monitors and cameras would clearly take some time to retrofit across the whole fleet IF there was an engineering solution to that, by which time the fleet may be due to retire anyway. So all in all, clearly the DOO objective is some considerable time away.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Cameras may not be an easy thing to fit if they would put the unit out of gauge; they need to stick out to some extent to get a proper view. Most[1] stock with them is tapered in heavily towards the roofline; Class 15x (other than 158) is not.

[1] 700s aren't tapered, but they are (like most Desiros) quite narrow.
 
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I cant see them retrofitting DOO cameras to old trains it is simply not worth the hassle and cost involved. They would be better leasing a newer fleet. As said the 172 they could probably have justified it because of their age and they are quite similar to 377s. And if they are rostering a second person on every train what harm is there in requiring them to dispatch
 

kw12

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As said the 172 they could probably have justified it because of their age and they are quite similar to 377s. And if they are rostering a second person on every train what harm is there in requiring them to dispatch
The camera fitted 172 are working fine without a second member of staff on board.
 

driver_m

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So, whilst you've been discussing amongst yourselves about the RMT and it's ''inevitable' loss over the DOO. The arrival of the 195s and 331s with their bodyside mounted cameras mean that ASLEF will soon be getting involved with this dispute. The question is going to be have to asked and then the Elephant in the room is finally going to have to be dealt with. Speculate away people........
 
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So, whilst you've been discussing amongst yourselves about the RMT and it's ''inevitable' loss over the DOO. The arrival of the 195s and 331s with their bodyside mounted cameras mean that ASLEF will soon be getting involved with this dispute. The question is going to be have to asked and then the Elephant in the room is finally going to have to be dealt with. Speculate away people........

I think they will have to come up with a deal akin to GTR or even better if they can guarantee a person on every train with PTS certification coupled up with a hefty pay rise for Northern drivers bringing them up to the levels of DOO operators. The precedent has been set ASLEF do not seem to be that worried about DOO (and why would they). Well we hope so anyway, it's all bizarre these days how ASLEF decide the fate of the RMT guards as they cannot negotiate as we all learnt on Southern.
 

driver_m

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I think they will have to come up with a deal akin to GTR or even better if they can guarantee a person on every train with PTS certification coupled up with a hefty pay rise for Northern drivers bringing them up to the levels of DOO operators. The precedent has been set ASLEF do not seem to be that worried about DOO (and why would they). Well we hope so anyway, it's all bizarre these days how ASLEF decide the fate of the RMT guards as they cannot negotiate as we all learnt on Southern.

Not bizarre at all. The railway can't run without you and it can't run without drivers .The RMT haven't managed to secure pay levels and conditions for yourselves to match ours, so the answer may be the negotiation tactics of the RMT as opposed to ASLEFs. (I've been in both and I know which one is better at what it does for its members)
 

the sniper

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I think they will have to come up with a deal akin to GTR or even better if they can guarantee a person on every train with PTS certification coupled up with a hefty pay rise for Northern drivers bringing them up to the levels of DOO operators.

What do you actually mean by that? I know ASLEF are seen as very reasonable chaps on this forum, but any deal done will take their wages well above most existing DOO operators pay. This is a TOC that has no DOO(P). Look at the deal done on Southern where DOO was already widely implemented and the operational norm to most of their drivers. People should not underestimate the cost that will need to be paid to ASLEF members to sell out the Guards, or more accurately, to take on the liability of the PTI. They're already highly paid, even on Northern. Most don't need a few extra grand to 'do the doors', as most people on this forum would gladly agree to, as they know the risk they're taking on in exchange. Over the last five years the Crown Prosecution Service has done sterling work to further enforce the view that you don't need the career/liberty ending risk involved in being involved with the PTI. As such, they'll pay the king's ransom if they want it in, now more than ever. ASLEF would be daft not to aim for £60k. For some Drivers, even that wouldn't be enough, as they want absolutely nothing to with supporting the expansion of DOO and the undermining of the Guards.

Well we hope so anyway, it's all bizarre these days how ASLEF decide the fate of the RMT guards as they cannot negotiate as we all learnt on Southern.

Only bizarre if you view the situation with naivety.
 

transgeek

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Question I wonder if anyone might be able to answer:
Reading some of this thread has partially allieviated one of my concerns about DOO - not having anyone to talk to if needed during the journey - but I'm still somewhat concerned about effect when getting off the train for me.
Steps down from the train that are big or if there's quite a visible gap between the step and the platform can make me nervous, to the point of panicking and freezing. Quite often I can get a hand down from another passenger, but sometimes that won't happen for whatever reason, which is why knowing the guard is there (if I'm in the back carriage) or I can shout out of the doors if I'm not at the back is so reassuring to me, because I know I can't get stuck if I can't get off without a hand down. I'm still concerned that even with a customer service person on the train that a) I won't know where they'll be when the train stops and b) they won't be able to stop the driver from closing the doors briefly if needed.
Any thoughts?
 

woodmally

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So, whilst you've been discussing amongst yourselves about the RMT and it's ''inevitable' loss over the DOO. The arrival of the 195s and 331s with their bodyside mounted cameras mean that ASLEF will soon be getting involved with this dispute. The question is going to be have to asked and then the Elephant in the room is finally going to have to be dealt with. Speculate away people........
One I fail to see why body mounted cameras will concern Aslef. However if it did Aslef will do what they normally do. Threaten strike action till they get a decent payout.
 

driver_m

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One I fail to see why body mounted cameras will concern Aslef. However if it did Aslef will do what they normally do. Threaten strike action till they get a decent payout.

Try harder if you're going to troll. F for effort. U for knowledge.
 

woodmally

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Try harder if you're going to troll. F for effort. U for knowledge.
ok then please furnish me with knowledge. I have two questions 1) What is the problem with body mounted cameras and 2) have Aslef ever been on strike over DOO?
 

HowardGWR

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Question I wonder if anyone might be able to answer:
Reading some of this thread has partially allieviated one of my concerns about DOO - not having anyone to talk to if needed during the journey - but I'm still somewhat concerned about effect when getting off the train for me.
Steps down from the train that are big or if there's quite a visible gap between the step and the platform can make me nervous, to the point of panicking and freezing. Quite often I can get a hand down from another passenger, but sometimes that won't happen for whatever reason, which is why knowing the guard is there (if I'm in the back carriage) or I can shout out of the doors if I'm not at the back is so reassuring to me, because I know I can't get stuck if I can't get off without a hand down. I'm still concerned that even with a customer service person on the train that a) I won't know where they'll be when the train stops and b) they won't be able to stop the driver from closing the doors briefly if needed.
Any thoughts?
It seems to me that with your problem, you qualify as a disabled person in that you need assistance. Thus it would be sensible to book that assistance in the same way that someone who needed a ramp would do.
 

Bromley boy

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ok then please furnish me with knowledge. I have two questions 1) What is the problem with body mounted cameras and 2) have Aslef ever been on strike over DOO?

1. They are prone to fogging over and not showing a clear picture in poor light, or where the sun strikes either the camera or the in-cab display at the wrong angle. Some systems have had issues with the images presented to the driver having a delay and not showing events “real time”.

Add into the mix a few recent criminal cases against rail staff and you can hopefully see why drivers used to a guard may be uneasy about the proposed new method of working.

2. Yes, recently on GATEX and GTR (Southern).
 
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driver_m

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ok then please furnish me with knowledge. I have two questions 1) What is the problem with body mounted cameras and 2) have Aslef ever been on strike over DOO?

I think Bromley Boy has furnished you well enough there, and as has been said enough times already, the money is not an answer, I have no personal desire to help enable my workmates to be got rid of, just so that foreign state rail can earn more money at the expense of safety.

Let's turn this all on its head. Would you go on Pilot Only Operated aircraft?
 
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I hate DOO but I dont see what the Drivers can do about it if the company and government are set on it. The foreign states are having their losses paid by our state so they have nothing to lose as we have seen on Southern. I imagine that Northern will have a much better deal than that of Southern as has been said above there is currently no DOO so theoretically every train should have a second person on it. It's hard to say anymore as both sides have been very very vague on the whole proposal unlike on GTR if the majority of stock is incompatiable with DOO operations I dont see why they cannot roster an assisting conductor on every train anyway as surely they will work other routes as well.
 

scrapy

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It seems to me that with your problem, you qualify as a disabled person in that you need assistance. Thus it would be sensible to book that assistance in the same way that someone who needed a ramp would do.
At present someone just needing a ramp does not need to book assistance as all trains have ramps and guards a person requiring a ramp can turn up and go at an accessible station on Northern. Having no guarantee of a second person on the train means that disabled people or those in transgeeks position lose the flexibility to turn up and go.
 

Bletchleyite

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Would you go on Pilot Only Operated aircraft?

I have done though it was quite small (12 ish seat seaplane in Canada). But the main case for the cabin crew is speed of evacuation, which doesn't apply to a train. The need for two pilots is because you can't just whack the brakes on if the deadman is operated.

There's also that every bus in the country near enough is "DOO".
 

Bletchleyite

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At present someone just needing a ramp does not need to book assistance as all trains have ramps and guards a person requiring a ramp can turn up and go at an accessible station on Northern. Having no guarantee of a second person on the train means that disabled people or those in transgeeks position lose the flexibility to turn up and go.

Of course we could have specified low floor stock and a progressive platform works policy to ensure we had level boarding across the UK over the next 10-20 years, avoiding that problem - just like the Swiss did. But oh no, instead we come up with regressive ideas like the super-high-floored Class 800.

PRM TSI should really have specified level boarding and zero gap for new rolling stock and stations. It's very bad that it didn't - it would be of massively greater benefit than swapping wheelchair accessible toilet facilities for slightly bigger ones[1] or providing cheap, low-quality PIS displays that don't work half the time.

[1] Not that that shouldn't be done anyway of course. Though the most common design makes the bowl very difficult to access for tall people due to its position in relation to the wall, which shows that the spec is not as well thought through as it could be.
 

pemma

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Let's turn this all on its head. Would you go on Pilot Only Operated aircraft?

Given Wingly has taken off (excuse the pun) it suggests the public have no issue with pilot only aircraft on very small aircraft.

Don't worry the train drivers will have plenty of time to do the guards duties when automated trains are introduced and they will only have to step in and drive the train in an emergency. ;)
 

Bletchleyite

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Given Wingly has taken off (excuse the pun) it suggests the public have no issue with pilot only aircraft on very small aircraft.

Don't worry the train drivers will have plenty of time to do the guards duties when automated trains are introduced and they will only have to step in and drive the train in an emergency. ;)

That's the DLR style "guard only operation" concept I often talk of, no? :)
 

CN75

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At present someone just needing a ramp does not need to book assistance as all trains have ramps and guards a person requiring a ramp can turn up and go at an accessible station on Northern. Having no guarantee of a second person on the train means that disabled people or those in transgeeks position lose the flexibility to turn up and go.

Not if you staff all the stations on the route, which is the plan for the transferred guards. Then you don’t need someone on the train.
 

Moonshot

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Not if you staff all the stations on the route, which is the plan for the transferred guards. Then you don’t need someone on the train.

Except that a lot of stations in Northernland simply dont justify a staff presence due to low footfall. Just how would you justify having staff members at somewhere like Clifton or Entwhistle etc....
 

CN75

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Except that a lot of stations in Northernland simply dont justify a staff presence due to low footfall. Just how would you justify having staff members at somewhere like Clifton or Entwhistle etc....

If it’s very small stations such as Clifton on a route that’s converting to DOO and newly staffed at other stations nearby, perhaps Northern will put a sign up at that station saying that if you need assistance you will be given a taxi to the nearest station.

Or, just have a staff member there between the hours trains actually stop there. The staff Northern envisage are for Station duties and ticket sales and collection as well as getting people on and off the trains.
 

driver_m

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I have done though it was quite small (12 ish seat seaplane in Canada). But the main case for the cabin crew is speed of evacuation, which doesn't apply to a train. The need for two pilots is because you can't just whack the brakes on if the deadman is operated.

There's also that every bus in the country near enough is "DOO".

Not even going there with the bus, but for the plane comparison, I shall have to be more specific seeing as I should have realised someone would use a tiny plane. Let's say something using a 737-800, a 787-900 or even a A380.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not even going there with the bus, but for the plane comparison, I shall have to be more specific seeing as I should have realised someone would use a tiny plane. Let's say something using a 737-800, a 787-900 or even a A380.

I wouldn't, but a train[1] is more similar to a bus than to a plane, so I don't agree with your rejection of the comparison.

The key differences are:
- Two pilots rather than one because a plane can't just whack the brakes on if the pilot goes unconscious
- Evacuation has to be completed in the event of a crash within minutes otherwise everybody dies (this is where the small plane differs as it's more like a car in terms of getting out)

Neither of those are true of a train. If the driver, as the only member of staff, goes unconscious, the train automatically stops and everyone is safe remaining on board until evacuated. (It's no fun, but they are safe). And regarding evacuation, in almost no case on the railway does this need to be rushed - almost always it is *less* safe.

They simply are not comparable.

[1] OK, not a 12 car London commuter train, but a Class 153 has a similar capacity to a large coach or double decker bus, and in London the same number of doors, too.
 

Moonshot

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If it’s very small stations such as Clifton on a route that’s converting to DOO and newly staffed at other stations nearby, perhaps Northern will put a sign up at that station saying that if you need assistance you will be given a taxi to the nearest station.

Or, just have a staff member there between the hours trains actually stop there. The staff Northern envisage are for Station duties and ticket sales and collection as well as getting people on and off the trains.

So where do you draw the line? What % of Northern passengers on a daily basis require a ramp to assist them on and off the train ?
 

CN75

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So, whilst you've been discussing amongst yourselves about the RMT and it's ''inevitable' loss over the DOO. The arrival of the 195s and 331s with their bodyside mounted cameras mean that ASLEF will soon be getting involved with this dispute. The question is going to be have to asked and then the Elephant in the room is finally going to have to be dealt with. Speculate away people........

Northern attempt to negotiate DOO(P) on specific routes with the new stock. ASLEF decline any extension of DOO(P). Northern sends ASLEF drivers for DOO(P) training as it can send drivers on any training it wants to. Drivers ask their union if they should go, ASLEF tell them to attend the training as to not go would be illegal unofficial action. At the same time ASLEF call a dispute over extending DOO against existing agreements. The ballot has a huge majority for action. Northern takes ASLEF to court, but fails to invalidate the result. The DOO(P) training and all the planning for DOO however continues. ASLEF members have an overtime ban. Northern responds by cutting the timetable. ASLEF hold strikes. Northern gets government support to face them off. It all gets political, but the Conservatives are in government and bankroll Northern. The press plays up to the nationalist trends of a war against dinosaur unions holding the country to ransom. The Labour Party pressure the government who dig in even further. However, Brexit dominates the news.

Some younger ASLEF members start to realise they are losing a lot of money and can’t keep it up. ASLEF’s leadership realises that there could be a disastrous breakdown in union discipline and suspends the strikes. A negotiation process with Northern starts on a resolution. The process drags on for months. The DOO(P) training is completed for all affected drivers, the stations are ready and the new trains and their routes are set. Northern driver managers start driving some of the new trains DOO(P) on the routes. ASLEF accept that their agreements and contracts can be amended by the employer if negotiation has been attempted. The risk of striking indefinitely to ASLEF is realised and the battle changes to getting the best for their members. They write to drivers with a deal which looks great because of the pay rise and other strings attached to it but contains some DOO(P), and recommend it because the alternative is Northern executing their threat to give drivers 12 weeks notice of contract change. The ballot is tight but the deal is accepted. The RMT claim ASLEF sold them out.
 

Moonshot

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Northern attempt to negotiate DOO(P) on specific routes with the new stock. ASLEF decline any extension of DOO(P). Northern sends ASLEF drivers for DOO(P) training as it can send drivers on any training it wants to. Drivers ask their union if they should go, ASLEF tell them to attend the training as to not go would be illegal unofficial action. At the same time ASLEF call a dispute over extending DOO against existing agreements. The ballot has a huge majority for action. Northern takes ASLEF to court, but fails to invalidate the result. The DOO(P) training and all the planning for DOO however continues. ASLEF members have an overtime ban. Northern responds by cutting the timetable. ASLEF hold strikes. Northern gets government support to face them off. It all gets political, but the Conservatives are in government and bankroll Northern. The press plays up to the nationalist trends of a war against dinosaur unions holding the country to ransom. The Labour Party pressure the government who dig in even further. However, Brexit dominates the news.

Some younger ASLEF members start to realise they are losing a lot of money and can’t keep it up. ASLEF’s leadership realises that there could be a disastrous breakdown in union discipline and suspends the strikes. A negotiation process with Northern starts on a resolution. The process drags on for months. The DOO(P) training is completed for all affected drivers, the stations are ready and the new trains and their routes are set. Northern driver managers start driving some of the new trains DOO(P) on the routes. ASLEF accept that their agreements and contracts can be amended by the employer if negotiation has been attempted. The risk of striking indefinitely to ASLEF is realised and the battle changes to getting the best for their members. They write to drivers with a deal which looks great because of the pay rise and other strings attached to it but contains some DOO(P), and recommend it because the alternative is Northern executing their threat to give drivers 12 weeks notice of contract change. The ballot is tight but the deal is accepted. The RMT claim ASLEF sold them out.

Or a much simpler version......Northern offer a pay increase to drivers who want to actually drive trains without a guard. Anyone who doesnt want to take that up can stick with driving trains which have a guard rostered to them.
 
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