-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Arriva Rail North DOO
- Thread starter Andrew32
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
Via the lots of money ARN get from the government, they do.
Nope they are not allowed there are rules governing how many are allowed on a picket line.Presumably the guards are taking their families to the picket lines, after all the fight is apparently all about passenger safety and their family members are likely passengers so if they support the safety argument why not join the guards on the picket line.
I think from an RMT perspective Saturday strikes are the best idea. As the workers can the gain money lost on Saturday on Sunday for time. Won't get OT rate but recoup lost earnings. I would love to be a fly on the wall during these talks to work out what is actually, if anything, being discussed. What do they talk about? RMT "keep the guard" Northern "we can't we arnt allowed". Meeting adjourned till next week then.
I'm just going to take it that we're never going to have a normal train service up here on Saturdays. Resigned to taking buses or not bothering travelling. And what a result for the RMT: taking passengers not with them on the argument against DOO, but putting them off the railways entirely.
Surely this is the aim though? What's the point of strike action if it doesn't damage the revenue, both directly (on the day) and indirectly (through lost good reputation) of the business.
Fair point. I wonder about the 'end point'. Just how far can this carry on?
Anecdotal here but while it's fresh in my mind. Mate of mine is a PNE supporter, for his sins. He tried to make it to Sheffield (Wednesday) today, and throughout our Facebook Messenger group-chat, he regaled us with just how difficult it was. EMT train with people up against the window it was that packed, police stopping passengers from boarding, coaches filling up within seconds and leaving passengers with rapidly decreasing options, the works. Not pretty, and not EMT's fault at all.
Overspeed110
Member
- Joined
- 16 Nov 2017
- Messages
- 117
It's certainly causing problems, and Northern don't give 2 f' s about it. Talking to people I know still at Northern, the attitude of the striking staff is now hardening, as they've realised that their employers really don't care about them. To all the Northern managers who volunteered of their own making to play at trains, enjoy working 12hr shifts on your Saturdays off 
I agree it should not carry on and while my views on the nature of the dispute are complex (in general I think that the union has close to the right aims but employs a poor approach), the external costs of the disruption have now far outstripped any costs that would have resulted from planned changes going ahead without the industrial dispute.
The economic and human cost of the fallout has been significant. It affects the staff both those taking action and those like station staff and guards at other TOCs who are coming to work. It affects people who use other trains or modes, and people who don't or cannot travel in a big way. It affects the macroeconomy, and it affects the viability of enhancements to the service in the North of England in the future. The consequences of this are grave and increasing, let us not mistake that.
Killingworth
Established Member
It's certainly causing problems, and Northern don't give 2 f' s about it. Talking to people I know still at Northern, the attitude of the striking staff is now hardening, as they've realised that their employers really don't care about them. To all the Northern managers who volunteered of their own making to play at trains, enjoy working 12hr shifts on your Saturdays off
Well none of them have ever worked on strike days on the Hope Valley line so that's taking the one train an hour they should provide totally out of the equation. On weekdays East Midlands have provided a limited number of extra stops and tried to do some on Saturdays. They've learned to their cost that they can't take on any more stops on Saturdays!
I can report that passenger opinion is hardening - in favour of abandoning trains and using cars. The vast majority of passengers don't look in here. They couldn't care much who said what to who. The train's not coming, forget it.
The rail industry seems to have a death wish. Everyone's blaming everyone else. That's the public perception. We know what happened in the South-East. Work from home once, OK. Twice, not so bad. Regularly, heh, why not most days? Trains that don't turn up. Trains that are packed like sardines - even when there are no strikes. (A grandson is paying for a season ticket to get to school on two lines that are DOO and have been for many years. I gather he may stand on both. He should be a regular rail user for decades to come, but if anything happens to his trains he can get a bus.)
It takes two sides to have a dispute. Has any member of train crew been specifically advised that their role will change at all? Has management made any specific proposals for any route or type of train? There's a franchise commitment to do something they patently can't impose yet because rolling stock and infrastructure won't allow it. At present it's a perception of what's to come which may be confirmed, or not. All we hear is stubborn refusal to budge one inch, ever.
It's time brains were engaged. ACAS seem to have failed. Do we have to have a total shut down to make everyone see sense? At least we'd know where we are. No trains. Jobs lost, across the north. Surely it hasn't come to this, to defend jobs that weren't threatened? If regular custom is lost they will be. The longer this goes on the more likely it becomes.
Let's get started on specific routes, on units, on tasks that are proposed to change on each, when and if there are to be cash settlements for the crews concerned.
Management may think I'm siding with them. Actually I'm naturally more inclined the other way. I can't for the life of me understand how they haven't been able to sort this out - but having got to 175 pages on here perhaps I can!
xc170
Member
- Joined
- 9 Feb 2008
- Messages
- 815
In my view, as a casual enthusiast and passenger, these ongoing strikes are doing nothing but damage to the railways reputation, more than BR ever managed to do...
*Edit - removed the rest of this post, cba.
*Edit - removed the rest of this post, cba.
Last edited:
Since the timetable change the problems on EMT services West of Manchester have been so serious that I almost wonder if it's worth reducing or withdrawing the service. Normally I would say that is the opposite of the answer and ridiculous, but I have been left behind twice and seen some totally silly delays. If it's getting as bad as this then really people's expectations need to be managed. If it's known in advance that 100+ people will be left on the platform, unable to board a crush loaded train, then is it really worth continuing?
I was told Northern didn't have any buses on standby either for people left behind. I don't know if that's true or not but it's a stark contrast to XC who had a huge number when they were affected by industrial action.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
I wonder if the unspoken DfT strike contingency funding has a limit after all?
I'm sure I read somewhere in the rumour mill that Northern were not actually touching this fund as it would essentially stop them being able to walk away from the franchise.
Wonder if there is any actual truth in it, or whether it's just the mill being sent into overdrive.
Sam
Robertj21a
On Moderation
- Joined
- 22 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 7,520
Thanks for that, one of the most sensible posts we've had on here for quite some time.
Given there'd be no one else serving the route, I don't think that would achieve anything. A 4 carriage 158 does manage to soak up a lot of passengers. Plus, it would just push the problem onto TPE services via Newton.
Completely untrue, if you were correct they’d have long ago dismissed all the striking staff and offered to re employ those that were prepared to agree new terms .
Any hardening attitude of those that support further strikes will more likley come from correctly predicting at very least an impression of contrinued dithering and uncertainty from the industry/DFT on how to ultimately address this longstanding impasse and possibly a belief ASLEF might also join in at some point, rather than any admiration for their unions always highly dubious national campaign that appears now to be loosing public support in the north faster than ever
Last edited:
Worth pointing out that a number of guards at Leeds are actually working strike days now. If strikes carry on like they are doing, I daresay some more will join them
Main problem is that red lines were drawn and agreed several years ago by the union prior to the start of their campaign and to my knowledge ACAS haven’t so far achieved any compromises from the RMT in any of the recent DOO disputes, they’ve mediated in. Scotrail and GWR backed down, Southern SWR and northern are still in dispute, they weren’t involved in the GA deal and Merseyrail still isn’t settled and will likley resume strikes if anything much dissimilar from the recently signed Greater Anglia deal is ultimately proposed
Last edited:
I think you've missed the point. A 4 car 158 is completely inadequate on strike days. Everyone who gets on will be crushed in, the train will be delayed and the platform will be left full of disappointed passengers who have no alternative but to wait 60 min for the next train, which will be the same as that one.
TransPennine haven't even been serving Liverpool on a number of recent Saturdays.
IMO it is better to advise people not to travel. Unless EMT can start hiring sprinters from Northern on strike days? No doubt there would be those who claim this is strike breaking of course.
I've heard this rumour too but I've no idea how close to the truth it is. It would certainly explain why Northern's strike mitigation is so terrible by comparison with Southern's. Very few bus replacements, bus replacements due to engineering work reduced, no ticket acceptance except what is free to them (Arriva buses) etc
Yes, the engineering works on the Newton line will have doubtless exacerbated the problems.
Nevertheless, I don't think it would have been acceptable for a company to cease running a service for no other reason than that overcrowding was expected. It would have been a red rag to several bulls.
Ideally EMT could have borrowed some units from Northern to strengthen EMT's transpennine section, but that would have involved some inter-TOC cooperation.
I wouldn't say that overcrowding is the bar. But if you are going to leave people behind, you know that in advance, and you do nothing about it resulting in hundreds of people left on platforms throughout the day... Is that really responsible?
northernchris
Established Member
- Joined
- 24 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 1,509
I'd seen at least 2 Skipton based guards working yesterday, so it may be the case that area East is softening
Realisically people could get left behind with any unprecedented surge in passengers. Ideally where its known that there will be more passengers than usual, it would be better for extra capacity to be provided, but failing that, better a crowded train than none at all.
What would be ideal would be if EMT could work out the maximum number of carriages that could fit the platform at Warrington Central and shuttle them between Manchester and Liverpool.
Not to the traincrew. An increasingly large number of guards in particular are refusing to work to Liverpool except on booked turns at the weekend. Levels of abuse and other issues are reaching breaking point. Nothing organised either - just many, many individuals utterly fed up of the ongoing issues up at Manchester compounded with being abandoned to provide the only strike day service. Police are having to attend trains consistently to remove people trying to board them and on one occasion yesterday a train stood at Manchester for 40 minutes because the passengers refused to make room for the guard to board.
Faced with all that rubbish or an afternoon in the pub what would you pick? Rosters don't even ask me if I'll go there now because they know the answer.
Well at the end of the day its the railway industry that is creating this situation, not the passengers. The way to solve it would be for everyone to run the railway service they're paid to do (and I include Government, management and staff in that).
Nothing to do with us. We are generally providing our advertised service right at the extreme end of our operating territory. Northern and the DfT have chosen to alienate their staff when other operators haven't. That's up to them. Expecting us to pick up the pieces as a contingency isn't going to happen.
- Status