Arriva Rail North DOO

[yorksrob]

Nothing to do with us. We are generally providing our advertised service right at the extreme end of our operating territory. Northern and the DfT have chosen to alienate their staff when other operators haven't. That's up to them. Expecting us to pick up the pieces as a contingency isn't going to happen.

I would suggest that the whole railway industry in the North is suffering reputational damage from this fiasco, and any train company operating in the region will potentially suffer. Your management should be berating Northern's management at RDG level and telling them to get their act together. The whole RDG should be publically shaming the DfT into doing something to relieve the situation.

Last weekend there weren't any railway routes operating East to West between Manchester - Liverpool and Newcastle - Carlisle. A truely shocking state of affairs which acts as an indictment of the industry, including Network Rail.

 

[Starmill]

Realisically people could get left behind with any unprecedented surge in passengers.

It isn't due to a surge in passenger numbers - its due to bad planning and there's no excuse for it. More effort is required in the part of Northern in my view.

 

[muz379]

I wouldn't say that overcrowding is the bar. But if you are going to leave people behind, you know that in advance, and you do nothing about it resulting in hundreds of people left on platforms throughout the day... Is that really responsible?

The problem is that whilst EMT might be able to predict that its trains will be leaving people behind they are not the primary operator over this route . Its just another example of an issue caused by fragmentation . The majority of passengers trying to board will have been displaced from northern services so are not EMT customers . Of course Northern can provide as much alternative travel or try and advise passengers not to travel , but people like to think that not to travel advice and rail replacement busses are not for them they are for everyone else .

To avoid these conflicts and risk to their staff one solution EMT might favour is to run non stop from Stockport to Warrington central to avoid the clearly predictable problems with overcrowding in Manchester . But I am sure plenty of people would have something to say about a half full train running non stop through MAN and MCO .

A better solution is for the stations to have crowd control in place to restrict the number of people waiting for these services so that there is not the resulting scrum and subsequent need for police assistance . This could be done quite easily with the currently discussed EMT service .

As for adding carriages , the longest platform at WAC is 126m . So even 3 X 2car 158's would be too long . And of course there are the logistical problems with providing a northern unit to attach . Where do you do this , where does the unit come from etc etc . You then have Northern units out of place for Sundays service . And Northern are also then exposed to a risk of possible financial penalty should they agree to provide EMT with a 158 or 156 but fail to be able to do so . Why would they do this for no real benefit to themselves ?

 

[yorksrob]

It isn't due to a surge in passenger numbers - its due to bad planning and there's no excuse for it. More effort is required in the part of Northern in my view.

Yes, I would agree entirely. I just disagree that cancelling the Manchester - Liverpool EMT service would improve the situation.

 

[Starmill]

Of course Northern can provide as much alternative travel or try and advise passengers not to travel , but people like to think that not to travel advice and rail replacement busses are not for them they are for everyone else .

While this is true a lot of the time, there is no advice for EMT or TPE services for strike days. They are advertised as booked, or subject to whatever that day's engineering work timetable is. There is no advice not to travel but on certain of these services it seems to be necessary. At the moment if I go onto National Rail Enquiries I can just book a ticket for an EMT service to Liverpool on each Northern strike day without even being warned that the train may be busy. Most of them even have a £9 Advance.

Having the police at the station to prevent people from boarding when they have booked an Advance for a particular train is breach of contract, so I can't imagine that going down well. The key is first and foremost to give the best advice (such as actually putting a message on NRE) and then to do everything possible in mitigation (such as withdrawing Advance tickets and offering alternative transport by road).

 

[Carlisle]

Northern and the DfT have chosen to alienate their staff when other operators haven't.

That’s one viewpoint,but equally another might be that it’s a long planned and strategic campaign by a militant union detemined to resist change, and it’s probably not be in the industrys best long term interests simply to back down.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I'm sure I read somewhere in the rumour mill that Northern were not actually touching this fund as it would essentially stop them being able to walk away from the franchise.
Wonder if there is any actual truth in it, or whether it's just the mill being sent into overdrive.
Sam

If that's genuinely the case you have to question how close they are now to walking away from it. After the PR battering they have had over the timetable chaos it could be that senior people are losing faith: such an attitude would certainly filter down through the management structure and might explain the general air of disinterest that seems to pervade the franchise. Starting to feel like Central Trains Mk 2!

 

[yorksrob]

The problem is that whilst EMT might be able to predict that its trains will be leaving people behind they are not the primary operator over this route . Its just another example of an issue caused by fragmentation . The majority of passengers trying to board will have been displaced from northern services so are not EMT customers . Of course Northern can provide as much alternative travel or try and advise passengers not to travel , but people like to think that not to travel advice and rail replacement busses are not for them they are for everyone else .

To avoid these conflicts and risk to their staff one solution EMT might favour is to run non stop from Stockport to Warrington central to avoid the clearly predictable problems with overcrowding in Manchester . But I am sure plenty of people would have something to say about a half full train running non stop through MAN and MCO .

A better solution is for the stations to have crowd control in place to restrict the number of people waiting for these services so that there is not the resulting scrum and subsequent need for police assistance . This could be done quite easily with the currently discussed EMT service .

As for adding carriages , the longest platform at WAC is 126m . So even 3 X 2car 158's would be too long . And of course there are the logistical problems with providing a northern unit to attach . Where do you do this , where does the unit come from etc etc . You then have Northern units out of place for Sundays service . And Northern are also then exposed to a risk of possible financial penalty should they agree to provide EMT with a 158 or 156 but fail to be able to do so . Why would they do this for no real benefit to themselves ?

The problem is that whilst EMT might be able to predict that its trains will be leaving people behind they are not the primary operator over this route . Its just another example of an issue caused by fragmentation . The majority of passengers trying to board will have been displaced from northern services so are not EMT customers . Of course Northern can provide as much alternative travel or try and advise passengers not to travel , but people like to think that not to travel advice and rail replacement busses are not for them they are for everyone else .

To avoid these conflicts and risk to their staff one solution EMT might favour is to run non stop from Stockport to Warrington central to avoid the clearly predictable problems with overcrowding in Manchester . But I am sure plenty of people would have something to say about a half full train running non stop through MAN and MCO .

A better solution is for the stations to have crowd control in place to restrict the number of people waiting for these services so that there is not the resulting scrum and subsequent need for police assistance . This could be done quite easily with the currently discussed EMT service .

As for adding carriages , the longest platform at WAC is 126m . So even 3 X 2car 158's would be too long . And of course there are the logistical problems with providing a northern unit to attach . Where do you do this , where does the unit come from etc etc . You then have Northern units out of place for Sundays service . And Northern are also then exposed to a risk of possible financial penalty should they agree to provide EMT with a 158 or 156 but fail to be able to do so . Why would they do this for no real benefit to themselves ?

I've seen 158/158/156 formations on the route, so this would help. As for Northern being exposed to the financial risk of not lending a unit, they should bear that risk or provide a proper train service.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

The new fleet is obviously testing however DCO operation using these units is presumably still some time away. Otherwise they would be simply imposing new contracts onto the staff like GTR Southern I would imagine the next step will be in the pay talks to open negotiation with ASLEF on agreeing a deal and then they will decide how they are going to work it operationally, whether that be using Guards on DCO services to assist, or creating a new role as DCO coverage increases similar to the On Board Supervisor or On Board Manager roles currently in existence at other TOCs. However they will still have to decide which depots will carry out this work, and whether they will be solely working DCO or there will be a mixture of Conductors and those working DCO and how they will select which existing staff undertake what.

 

[PHILIPE]

It's certainly causing issues. EMT trains Manchester to Liverpool into 3 or 4 figures for delays today due to overcrowding including multiple requirements for police assistance due to fighting on board.

On strike days, ATW call their Manchester to South Wales services additional at Alderley Edge, Holmes Chapel and Sandbach. Yesterday there was an overload on their Twitter feed about NT passengers crowding onto trains that were already overcrowded

 

[Starmill]

The new fleet is obviously testing however DCO operation using these units is presumably still some time away.

Are they not planned to be in service from 9th/10th December? At least the first units?

 

[Starmill]

On strike days, ATW call their Manchester to South Wales services additional at Alderley Edge, Holmes Chapel and Sandbach. Yesterday there was an overload on their Twitter feed about NT passengers crowding onto trains that were already overcrowded

It will be interesting to see if this continues on / after 20th October when Wales & Borders is no longer operated by Arriva.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The new fleet is obviously testing however DCO operation using these units is presumably still some time away. Otherwise they would be simply imposing new contracts onto the staff like GTR Southern I would imagine the next step will be in the pay talks to open negotiation with ASLEF on agreeing a deal and then they will decide how they are going to work it operationally, whether that be using Guards on DCO services to assist, or creating a new role as DCO coverage increases similar to the On Board Supervisor or On Board Manager roles currently in existence at other TOCs. However they will still have to decide which depots will carry out this work, and whether they will be solely working DCO or there will be a mixture of Conductors and those working DCO and how they will select which existing staff undertake what.

Once again you post on the basis that ASLEF's members at Northern are simply going to accept DOO subject to a pay deal. That remains a significant assumption until such time as Northern prompt a negotiation. Whether that wiil be done formally or by provocation is still unknown.

 

[northernchris]

The majority of passengers trying to board will have been displaced from northern services so are not EMT customers . Of course Northern can provide as much alternative travel or try and advise passengers not to travel , but people like to think that not to travel advice and rail replacement busses are not for them they are for everyone else .

Would EMT receive a higher share of the revenue on Northern strike days on the Liverpool - Manchester section? If not they have no incentive to strengthen services even if they were able to

 

[Iskra]

Leeds Utd have been given 7000 tickets at Blackburn away on strike day 20/10. No direct trains, but you can get there via the hourly Man Vic-Clitheroe service. What could possibly go wrong...

I have emailed Northern about this, but not sure if they are in a position to do anything.

Are these services normally 2 carriages?

 

[Starmill]

One of the interesting things I have noticed about this dispute too is that Northern do not seem to have any voice in the matter. The company does not even say why there is an industrail dispute on its website:

The RMT has announced a total of nine days of planned strikes on consecutive Saturdays – 25 August, 1 September, 8 September, 15 September, 22 September, 29 September, 6 October, 13 October and 20 OCtober – which will impact on our services.

This Saturday, 29 September - the sixth Saturday of RMT strike action - we will be operating a reduced timetable with very few trains running before 9am and after 6pm.

We expect to run around 30% of services and all customers are advised to plan carefully if they intend to travel on the rail network.

Unfortunately, on some routes, we aren't able to run services, while others have a limited service. On those routes where we are able to operate trains, we expect all services to be extremely busy. We also have replacement bus services available on some routes where trains aren’t running.

Two problems with this. One, it does not have the clear and unambigous message that you should not travel by train on these days that was made when Southern were affected by strike action. The other is that, without any form of come-back to the arguements presented by the RMT it gives the general public a very poor understanding of the context of the dispute and the reality of the national situation with regards to rolling stock and staffing levels. This seems generally to be reflected in the media too. Southern were always stating their message (either rightly or wrongly depending on whom you beleived) that they wanted to improve the service and would run with more staff. Northern have not communicated their plans to anyone, really though any means that I have seen? The company seem to be 'running out of steam' in this regard. They don't put up their strike timetable PDFs until a few days beforehand, or even take down the normal timetable from their website when strikes are announced. They don't communicate their message about what they want that has resulted in this dispute. They put very mininmal alternative travel arrangements for strike dates. They even refuse to pay when people send them breach of contract claims over their decision to withdraw services. Other posters have speculated that they might be close to giving back the franchise, there's no direct evidence for this, but the total lack of interest in these issues might be consistent with that.

 

[PR1Berske]

Leeds Utd have been given 7000 tickets at Blackburn away on strike day 20/10. No direct trains, but you can get there via the hourly Man Vic-Clitheroe service. What could possibly go wrong...

I have emailed Northern about this, but not sure if they are in a position to do anything.

Are these services normally 2 carriages?

You'd hope so.

 

[Starmill]

Leeds Utd have been given 7000 tickets at Blackburn away on strike day 20/10. No direct trains, but you can get there via the hourly Man Vic-Clitheroe service. What could possibly go wrong...

How do you know there will even be an hourly service between Manchester Vic and Clitheroe on 20th October? The timetable is not the same every day there's a strike.

Yesterday there were no trains between Manchester and Blackburn at all.

 

[Iskra]

How do you know there will even be an hourly service between Manchester Vic and Clitheroe on 20th October? The timetable is not the same every day there's a strike.

NRE. It’s showing some routes as cancelled, showing buses, showing alternative routes using other operators for parts of it.

Obviously there is time for things to change, but we can only work with the information that we currently have. It is less than a month away.

I am prepared to drive if necessary, although there is a circuitous route from Sheffield available via Preston currently.

 

[LowLevel]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/watch-foul-mouthed-row-packed-15190533

This kind of stuff is why we have no interest in heading up there of a weekend. The previous service referenced was cancelled because no traincrew were available. Since TPE moved off the Warrington route I don't think anyone had considered the massive increase in problems that would be caused when the strikes were on as it had previously being somewhat sheltered by the EMT and TPE operations.

 

[Starmill]

NRE. It’s showing some routes as cancelled, showing buses, showing alternative routes using other operators for parts of it.

Obviously there is time for things to change, but we can only work with the information that we currently have. It is less than a month away.

I am prepared to drive if necessary, although there is a circuitous route from Sheffield available via Preston currently.

But the times on NRE have not been updated...

Check before you travel:
You can check your journey for Saturday 29 September using the National Rail Enquiries real-time Journey Planner

These changes for 6, 13 and 20 October are not currently shown in the National Rail Enquiries Journey Planner, please check back nearer to the time of travel.

As I have commented, times are not confirmed more than a week in advance.

With reference to Manchester to Blackburn specifically I am not aware of this having trains by any route in any strike day. I'm prepared to be corrected on that but...

Replacement buses were running yesterday.

 

[Iskra]

But the times on NRE have not been updated...



As I have commented, times are not confirmed more than a week in advance.

With reference to Manchester to Blackburn specifically I am not aware of this having trains by any route in any strike day. I'm prepared to be corrected on that but...

Replacement buses were running yesterday.

Okay thanks for the information.

NRE is showing a TP train to Vic then a bus from there to Blackburn.

I will keep an open mind for now. As said upthread I have emailed Northern so they may reply with some useful information.

And there is always the car.

 

[Dave1987]

Quite alarming to see that certain management types on here see staff morale as unimportant. Ruling with an iron fist will never get the best out of your staff. Staff that feel valued will always work harder for their management. Would seem there is a total and complete loss of trust between management and staff and that is extremely sad to see. But it’s been happening a lot recently and seems to be what the Government want.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite alarming to see that certain management types on here see staff morale as unimportant. Ruling with an iron fist will never get the best out of your staff. Staff that feel valued will always work harder for their management. Would seem there is a total and complete loss of trust between management and staff and that is extremely sad to see. But it’s been happening a lot recently and seems to be what the Government want.

I don't see that it is what the Government want at all. I think the Government simply don't actually care provided they get the train service for the lowest subsidy possible.

 

[Robertj21a]

Quite alarming to see that certain management types on here see staff morale as unimportant. Ruling with an iron fist will never get the best out of your staff. Staff that feel valued will always work harder for their management. Would seem there is a total and complete loss of trust between management and staff and that is extremely sad to see. But it’s been happening a lot recently and seems to be what the Government want.

Well, for the record, my personal view is that staff morale is essential if you are to get the best out of a happy workforce. Good managers know that.
However, it also takes two to tango - all parties need to pull in the same direction.

 

[a_c_skinner]

A little tangentially: Southern found the strike days rapidly made more modest differences to the number of trains running. I've no idea why they found relief guards but why has Northern not been able to function as well during its strikes? I'd assumed by now Northern would have got into a position of being less disrupted on strike days much in the way Southern did but plainly not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A little tangentially: Southern found the strike days rapidly made more modest differences to the number of trains running. I've no idea why they found relief guards but why has Northern not been able to function as well during its strikes? I'd assumed by now Northern would have got into a position of being less disrupted on strike days much in the way Southern did but plainly not.

Er, wasn't that because they had already switched to DOO on most services and so the striking guards weren't needed anyway?

 

[Starmill]

A little tangentially: Southern found the strike days rapidly made more modest differences to the number of trains running. I've no idea why they found relief guards but why has Northern not been able to function as well during its strikes? I'd assumed by now Northern would have got into a position of being less disrupted on strike days much in the way Southern did but plainly not.

Disruption has increased significantly. This is through a combination of mitigation being less available (e.g. No extra stops on EMT services any more), fewer replacement services available (e.g at the start, tickets were accepted on Metrolink but not any more) and fewer scheduled services running (it was close to 50% in the first strikes, but now it is below 30%).

Part of this could be to do with holding the strikes on Saturdays, where loadings are the highest they ever get on some flows. This is reflected in our upthread discussion about the spillover effect on other trains.

It will be very interesting to see if even fewer trains can run on 20th October, following the loss of the ATW managers as contingency guards, as has been predicted.

 

[Iskra]

Why don’t Arriva just leave the current arrangements in place for guards.

But, only recruit Onboard Supervisors going forward. They could then just switch one route at a time to OBS operation as guards leave/retire without a load of drama.

Would the RMT allow that?

 

[Starmill]

Why don’t Arriva just leave the current arrangements in place for guards.

The franchise agreement specifies a minimum mileage that must be operated I 'new mode'. Presumably current guards arrangements would not comply with this.

Would the RMT allow that?

Presumably not given the former conductors at Southern are still in dispute over their new role.