Arriva Rail North DOO

[yorksrob]

A report the RMT won't like - a Transport Focus one giving the views of passengers. In summary, as you'd expect it says they're fed up of the strikes and have no problems with door duties transferring to the driver - with some seeing it as an advantage and they want a visible second second member of staff on board with some saying that currently does not happen and some saying lack of customer facing staff is their main concern with DCO. Passengers are also critical of Northern's ability to run a decent train service: http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.ne...passengers-and-their-views-on-the-dispute.pdf

At last, the views of passengers are being heard. And they want a sensible compromise with a second person on every train with more customer focused duties.

If only the troika of obduracy would reach such an agreement and stop damaging the railway in the North with this destructive dispute.

 

[janb]

According to Northern's Twitter feed the RMT have moved their red lines since agreeing to take part in ACAS talks: https://twitter.com/crazyh/status/1057548428316696576

Yes, the Northern position is that they and the RMT had agreed to explore 3 options for a second safety critical person on board, a) current working, b) driver open, conductor close, c) RMT default of second safety critical person. Northern say that RMT have since removed c) from the table.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The pacers withdrawal is imminent? Isn't training about to commence on their replacement?

The 195s and 331s can be either DOO or guard operated, so guards are being trained on them.

 

[Killingworth]

The real question is whether a significant number of the old guards who refuse to accept any change to their role have had enough of Northern and gone elsewhere, leaving relatively new recruits to take their place.

I'd suspect it's more likely to go the other way. Established staff will stay. Newcomers will get fed up and move on. Any possible redundancy payments would, of course, favour the longer service employees.

 

[Carlisle]

I'd suspect it's more likely to go the other way. Established staff will stay. Newcomers will get fed up and move on. Any possible redundancy payments would, of course, favour the longer service employees.

I’d tend to agree, a few might have moved to TPE but that’s about it .

 

[Bletchleyite]

I just can't imagine any guards being made redundant even if the outcome was to be that Classes 195 and 331 will be operated DOO with no second member of staff ever. Northern has tons of old rolling stock which just isn't going to be converted to DOO. This being the case, it'll just be a recruitment freeze with natural losses as people leave, retire, change to being drivers or move to other TOCs such as TPE so the numbers slowly reduce over time. The 15x are going nowhere until at least the end of this franchise and possibly the end of the next.

I'm confident that there's a conventional guard's job there (at Northern or later at TPE or VTWC) for any current guard who wants one, pretty much for as long as they are likely to want one.

If the final deal is OBS for the 195s and 331s (and that's what I'd expect given that it's rumoured that has been agreed for Merseyrail where the case for anything other than "full" DOO with no second member of staff is rather weak), they'll have the choice of that, too, and I'm sure some will prefer that if they find doors a faff and/or don't want the risk of being vexatiously hauled up in Court for a Martin Zee style incident.

Really, to current staff, this is so much of a non-issue it's unbelievable it's going on so long.

Is it time there was legislation that prevents Unions striking over the theoretical terms and conditions of future staff who haven't even entered the guard or driver grades yet? As that looks to me to be what they are in fact doing.

 

[Carlisle]

Is it time there was legislation that prevents Unions striking over the theoretical terms and conditions of future staff who haven't even entered the guard or driver grades yet? As that looks to me to be what they are in fact doing.

I agree and I’m surprised the present or previous government didn’t do that

 

[B&I]

Why does the DfT, or Northern, need to compromise ?. Just because a union doesn't like something, that's no reason for the company/management to back down from what they perceive to be necessary.

It's because of stubborn 'dinosaur' unions like the RMT that the whole Trade Union movement gets tarred with the same brush.

Because it might be reasonable to allow workers to have some input in their working conditions, rather than allowing employers to dictate everything ?

 

[Robertj21a]

Because it might be reasonable to allow workers to have some input in their working conditions, rather than allowing employers to dictate everything ?

Fine. Except the general view is that this dispute is really nothing at all to do with working conditions !

 

[Wolfie]

Why does the DfT, or Northern, need to compromise ?. Just because a union doesn't like something, that's no reason for the company/management to back down from what they perceive to be necessary.

It's because of stubborn 'dinosaur' unions like the RMT that the whole Trade Union movement gets tarred with the same brush.

How wonderfully Victorian. .. Shut up and get those kids up the chimney!
Has it occurred to you that EVERY improvement in worker's conditions (including H&S) came about through obdurate trades unions refusing to accept whatever management wished to do?

 

[Wolfie]

Fine. Except the general view is that this dispute is really nothing at all to do with working conditions !

Whose 'general' view? Grayling, Conservative party Central office's briefing pack, the Daily Heil?

 

[B&I]

Fine. Except the general view is that this dispute is really nothing at all to do with working conditions !

I would call trying to prevent your job being abolished an issue of working conditions.

 

[Robertj21a]

I would call trying to prevent your job being abolished an issue of working conditions.

As far as I'm aware there are no job losses so I really can't understand the need for so much fuss. Jobs change, life changes - it's how we develop into more appropriate and efficient lifestyles. Only the RMT could be so blinkered and stuck in the dark ages.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would call trying to prevent your job being abolished an issue of working conditions.

A view often expressed in the past, by firemen, passed cleaners, wheeltappers and shunters

 

[Killingworth]

A view often expressed in the past, by firemen, passed cleaners, wheeltappers and shunters

......porters, rural station masters, level crossing keepers, luggage in advance staff and many other roles all but gone today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would call trying to prevent your job being abolished an issue of working conditions.

I am pretty sure no guard who is bothered about continuing as a guard will have their job abolished. As I said there is too much 15x stock out there for that to happen.

This is about protecting the future of the grade, and I think it is well beyond what should be the Union's remit to dictate future business strategy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as I'm aware there are no job losses so I really can't understand the need for so much fuss. Jobs change, life changes - it's how we develop into more appropriate and efficient lifestyles. Only the RMT could be so blinkered and stuck in the dark ages.

Well, quite.

 

[pemma]

I would call trying to prevent your job being abolished an issue of working conditions.

You mean role not job. Northern have guaranteed all guards will continue to be employed and will be on the guard grade, the only thing not confirmed is they will continue to do door and dispatch duties.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You mean role not job. Northern have guaranteed all guards will continue to be employed and will be on the guard grade, the only thing not confirmed is they will continue to do door and dispatch duties.

At least some of them clearly will, as 15x are not going away any time soon, while 319s are only fitted for DOO with platform mirrors/screens.

 

[Carlisle]

You mean role not job. Northern have guaranteed all guards will continue to be employed and will be on the guard grade, the only thing not confirmed is they will continue to do door and dispatch duties.

However it’s been pointed out on here part of northern’s bid involved transferring some guards to station duties, perhaps on suburban routes like Hadfield, has that been completely dropped now?

 

[CN75]

However it’s been pointed out on here part of northern’s bid involved transferring some guards to station duties, perhaps on suburban routes like Hadfield, has that been completely dropped now?

No it hasn’t.

 

[B&I]

You mean role not job. Northern have guaranteed all guards will continue to be employed and will be on the guard grade, the only thing not confirmed is they will continue to do door and dispatch duties.

No I mean job. That guarantee lasts only to the end of the franchise

 

[B&I]

As far as I'm aware there are no job losses so I really can't understand the need for so much fuss. Jobs change, life changes - it's how we develop into more appropriate and efficient lifestyles. Only the RMT could be so blinkered and stuck in the dark ages.

I would suggest that you get back to us when someone proposes abolishing your job as obsolete and inefficient (which, frankly, could happen to any one of us) and let us know how you feel about it then.

There is a difference between thinking that the role of the guard is necessary, and having some understanding on why workers might feel compelled to strike to prevent themselves being thrown on the scrapheap, particularly in our current economic and social climate. It is this second understanding which seems to be in short supply among some on this thread

 

[B&I]

At last, the views of passengers are being heard. And they want a sensible compromise with a second person on every train with more customer focused duties.

If only the troika of obduracy would reach such an agreement and stop damaging the railway in the North with this destructive dispute.

'The Troika of Obduracy' sound like some short-lived enemies of Superman's

 

[a_c_skinner]

I'm hard pushed to think of a good example of striking working to protect a job that was obsolete, it doesn't work. (But as I always say I do think there should be a second person on a train to look after the passengers.)

 

[pemma]

No I mean job. That guarantee lasts only to the end of the franchise

You do realise all employment contracts have termination terms for both the employer and employee so Northern have offered something unprecedented in saying they are guaranteeing they won't use their right to terminate the contract at any time. Also DfT have added a further guarantee that the employment is guaranteed for at least the first 12 months of the next franchise - the RMT should think carefully about that before calling for DfT to strip Northern of the franchise!

 

[pemma]

There is a difference between thinking that the role of the guard is necessary, and having some understanding on why workers might feel compelled to strike to prevent themselves being thrown on the scrapheap, particularly in our current economic and social climate. It is this second understanding which seems to be in short supply among some on this thread

Yet Northern are currently recruiting additional conductors at Piccadilly, Buxton and Lime Street so no need for strike action over jobs when Northern are adding conductors to the team, not getting rid of them. Although the RMT might have a few words to say about how the adverts focus on a requirement for excellent customer service.

 

[Robertj21a]

I would suggest that you get back to us when someone proposes abolishing your job as obsolete and inefficient (which, frankly, could happen to any one of us) and let us know how you feel about it then.

There is a difference between thinking that the role of the guard is necessary, and having some understanding on why workers might feel compelled to strike to prevent themselves being thrown on the scrapheap, particularly in our current economic and social climate. It is this second understanding which seems to be in short supply among some on this thread

You're talking to the wrong person there !

Been there, done that.

Most of my jobs have had termination contracts of 3 or 6 months. These rail jobs being discussed are over many *years* !!. Even then, there's no redundancies being suggested.

What is it that rail staff really don't understand about living out in the real world ?

 

[yorksrob]

'The Troika of Obduracy' sound like some short-lived enemies of Superman's

I thought it aptly describes the stand-off between the RMT, Northern Rail and DfT !

 

[northernchris]

If there is to be a strike on 17th November is tomorrow the latest day it can be announced?