Confused52
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What date does the overtime claim have to go in for payment before Christmas?
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Arriva Rail North DOO
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Xenophon PCDGS
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Killingworth
Established Member
As an active member of a trades union for many decades I know we talked up our value by highlighting disputes with our employer. Nevertheless there were far more things on which we negotiated without strife or even threats of industrial action. Taking action was a very rare event, and so unusual that it usually did have effect.
If I were looking at the RMT News page tonight for the first time I'd form an impression. All employers must be really awful people - this is war! https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/
There's a fixed mind set of belligerence - take us on, we dare you, don't mess with us. The nuclear option works best when not used. The smacked child (not that any are smacked these days) gets used to it and accepts it as part of normal life, a risk you take.
Unfortunately the railways are still living in that past, employers accepting there will be strikes and assuming passengers will come back. They always have, haven't they? Maybe not..............
I was speaking to someone today who told me our local station should be closed down! Useless for a reliable service - and it wasn't even a strike day. Clogs the roads all round his place with cars when there are trains. Grass over the car park, or turn it into a bus interchange facility.. His train today had been half an hour late. Last Thursday two half hourly trains in a row were cancelled without any strike.
With so many things already wrong with the industry it really is ridiculous for the 3 parties not to get together and resolve this, one way or another - and before passengers get so used to other modes of transport and travel patterns that they won't return.
Railways are not indispensible.
If I were looking at the RMT News page tonight for the first time I'd form an impression. All employers must be really awful people - this is war! https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/
There's a fixed mind set of belligerence - take us on, we dare you, don't mess with us. The nuclear option works best when not used. The smacked child (not that any are smacked these days) gets used to it and accepts it as part of normal life, a risk you take.
Unfortunately the railways are still living in that past, employers accepting there will be strikes and assuming passengers will come back. They always have, haven't they? Maybe not..............
I was speaking to someone today who told me our local station should be closed down! Useless for a reliable service - and it wasn't even a strike day. Clogs the roads all round his place with cars when there are trains. Grass over the car park, or turn it into a bus interchange facility.. His train today had been half an hour late. Last Thursday two half hourly trains in a row were cancelled without any strike.
With so many things already wrong with the industry it really is ridiculous for the 3 parties not to get together and resolve this, one way or another - and before passengers get so used to other modes of transport and travel patterns that they won't return.
Railways are not indispensible.
Very true words. The level of complacency shown by all sides is breathtaking.
DaveB10780
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Lock them in a room until resolved seems the best answer.
It has been tried... It didn't work
DaveB10780
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Presumably because they let them out. This time keep them there indefinitely until sorted.
Robertj21a
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Not much point. Neither are going to budge.
We'll still be here in 6-12 months time with no progress. At some point I'd expect the company to take tough action.
Based on previous posts it seems both parties agreed to ACAS talks but once the RMT arrived they informed Northern and ACAS that they were no longer willing to discuss driver closing doors and dispatching, despite agreeing to discuss that prior to arriving.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If it goes on too long I can see it going the way of the dockers. We're doing this, resign if you don't like it, be sacked if you don't resign. Industrial action is only protected for so long and I believe they are well past that point now.
Yes I think the Southern tactic will be used if it carries on too long i.e. if they can come to an agreement with ASLEF and the RMT are still in dispute. Northern will say "We made an offer to the RMT that all guards would remain in employment on the guard grade with annual pay reviews until 2025 with DfT willing to extend that offer for a further year, on condition that the RMT accepted changes to the role of the second person. However, the RMT are unwilling to do that so the guards are now at risk of redundancy but we are able to offer at risk guards the opportunity to apply to become an OBS*."
* Personally I think Northern will call them CSAs as they seem to use that job title for anyone who is visible to the public while doing their role from dispatchers to ticket office clerks.
Surely the management can just wait and stonewall untl the new 'kit' is delivered (both onboard and on-station)?
5 more days of strikes announced - all on Saturdays - so they are striking every Saturday up to and including 15th Dec. The Christmas markets won't get their customers this year: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-raft-of-new-strike-dates-on-northern021118/
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That's the company's take on things. On speaking to an RMT rep directly involved, RMT we're willing to talk about driver closing and dispatching with a guaranteed second safety critical person on board this was previously agreed. The company wanted to talk about driver control and dispatch with no guarantee of this and driver control and dispatch with no second person at all.
I would also expect an announcement on further Saturdays to the 15th Dec within the hour.
Jamesrob637
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Good excuse to carry on in my current role where at least I do get some weekdays off
Already been made. See post posted just before yours.
Thanks
footprints
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Five more strikes, on top of the two previously announced, means every Saturday up to and including 29th December.
The link posted by jcollins says up to 29th December. This is every Saturday for the remainder of 2018.
They've changed the article. It stated 5 additional dates and listed dates up to an including 15th December but now it states additional dates up to and including 29th December (2 in November and 5 in December.) Saturday 10th Nov was the last date previously announced date, which is why everyone was expecting something to be announced today given the requirement for 2 weeks notice of a strike.
furnessvale
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Of course they will get their customers. The small percentage who used to use the trains are already finding alternative means of travel, many permanently.
That's horrendous. Nothing to do with DOO, everything to do with inconveniencing passengers.
Confused52
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Very bad news about more strikes up to 29th December as it almost declares an intent to carry on in to the New Year. What you describe is a situation where the union will not discuss using the work method that the employer is contracted to use by the Government. I have no idea why the RMT think the company and Government will bend to their will and increase the amount of public money that the latter will regard as an anachronistic inefficiency. The part of the network that can be made DCO without customer harm with short sectional running times will be the likely target and not the whole network. The RMT is currently protected by the current stock availability and the payment clause that requires Arriva to minimise the losses in strike action if they are to receive compensation to make them no worse off. I suspect that part of the condition is waivable by the Government if it wants to escalate the dispute and it will be the Government that chooses to do so, not Arriva.
If that comes as a surprise to you, you haven't been paying attention
I'm not surprised, I'm disappointed, angry.If that comes as a surprise to you, you haven't been paying attention
We're handicapped by rather bad railways up here as it is. Killing the weekend leisure market every weekend is only going to result in some lines being mothballed.
While you've made your argument about the total number of journeys made by train being small before, I think that argument is irrelevant when it comes to Christmas markets. There's loads of people who don't travel by train all year and then when it comes to Christmas markets and Christmas parties they use the train. Northern usually transport a 5 digit number of passengers in to Manchester alone on the pre-Christmas Saturdays and they can end up strengthening services which aren't usually strengthened and they still leave passengers on the platform unable to board.
Where's there significant public money to be saved, though? We keep hearing that this isn't about destaffing trains. At best, there'll be a small saving in the very long term as newer recruits will probably be on a slightly lower rate of pay and there won't be so much of a training and assessment requirement. I doubt that small saving justifies the enormous direct and indirect cost of this dispute though.
On the contrary, the general consensus on here and indeed where (most of?) the new trains are destined for are the longer-distance "Northern Connect" routes.
Conversely, the requirement for a specified proportion of mileage to be "DCO" must be waivable by the Government if it wants to resolve this dispute. I don't know why the RMT persist with largely ignoring the DfT's role in this, rather than going on and on about German-owned basketcases.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I wonder if the Government could pull a coup here by proposing a substantial extension of the CAF order to turn it into a full fleet replacement, allowing all trains to be DOO, then it can just be done Southern style provided ASLEF don't put up a fight?
I would imagine that would be a massive coup for passengers as well, not just getting rid of the Pacers but all the ageing 15x and 319s as well?
Meanwhile, the RMT can continue as they are if they wish, but eventually every single guard would be out of a job barring a few transferring to station staff duties.
That isn't my preference of course - but it could become an option if this goes on too long...
I would imagine that would be a massive coup for passengers as well, not just getting rid of the Pacers but all the ageing 15x and 319s as well?
Meanwhile, the RMT can continue as they are if they wish, but eventually every single guard would be out of a job barring a few transferring to station staff duties.
That isn't my preference of course - but it could become an option if this goes on too long...
Why should the RMT even be in dispute? If the dispute is about safety as the RMT keep telling us, surely it's for ASLEF to agree a safe method of operation with Northern.
Northern claim they are willing to discuss which routes get DCO with the unions but the RMT refuse to discuss it. Maybe the RMT should try telling Northern they'd be happier with a DCO Manchester-Marple service than a DCO Manchester Airport-Barrow service if that's the case.
The government aren't going to give in just because the RMT don't like it and call at a strike as the first resort. Remember Rail North (including Labour controlled TfGM and Metro) signed off the DCO requirement and it's rumoured the agreement they signed off on is vastly favourable to the original proposed by DfT.
Kite159
Veteran Member
I can see the number of staff christmas party bookings on Saturday nights in city centre locations decreasing this year as some goers who would have used the train so they can have a glass or two of wine at the party would decide to stay home.
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