Arriva Rail North DOO

[Jonfun]

It certainly isn't about pensions. However, the overall terms and conditions for guards are very favourable. A lot more favourable than many of the passengers being bitten by the strike.

Now the action of the guards is hitting other jobs and businesses without a massive loss to the guards, many people will start to question their support for those in a better position than themselves. Add into the mix that many services in the UK and worldwide operate very safely without a guard, then sympathy and support starts to wane. The "safety and security" angle also fades when most Northern services see the guard locked away on the rear cabin after 8pm - this would not change with a second staff member on board.

I suspect that many passengers would now rather see a service without a guard that runs on a Saturday, rather than no services in 2019.

Ultimately, what the passengers want is a railway which runs an efficient service, and simply maintaining the status quo would achieve that. If the passengers aren't bothered if there's a guard or not, and by having a guard we won't have these strikes continuing in perpetuity, bearing in mind there's no additional cost to the train operator as they'd already guaranteed job security and wages, then why are we trying to change a system that clearly works fine with one which clearly doesn't as it's led to all of this?

The costs of this dispute are astronomical, it's having unquantifiable effect on communities and businesses, but they're still insisting on ploughing changes through when everybody knows that what we're seeing now is small fry compared to how bad the dispute could get.

 

[Meerkat]

Ultimately, what the passengers want is a railway which runs an efficient service, and simply maintaining the status quo would achieve that. If the passengers aren't bothered if there's a guard or not, and by having a guard we won't have these strikes continuing in perpetuity, bearing in mind there's no additional cost to the train operator as they'd already guaranteed job security and wages, then why are we trying to change a system that clearly works fine with one which clearly doesn't as it's led to all of this?

It’s not efficient to employ people, and define their role, based on their industrial power.
There’s only no additional cost to the operator if the number of services is static, and no guards leave/retire (and if ‘operator’ includes future operators then if guards are immortal!)

 

[Killingworth]

I suggested that the RMT may need to be able to threaten more than one strike, and cited pensions as just one possible area for dispute. There may be others in the months ahead. This one needs resolving and soon.

The Sunday Times story about railway pension fund deficits can be found here;
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/railways-face-strike-threat-over-pensions-sgt6mljq2?shareToken=066f4d3ad23eb9cd844d0df3f2199ba2

That's a topic for another thread, but serves as reminder that there may be bigger issues threatening the long-term financial security of rail workers.

 

[PR1Berske]

And with that, the last traces of sympathy are vanishing.

Highly protected employment, retirement at 62 on a final salary pension..... Try a week in the shoes of some of the passengers who can't get to work on their zero-hours contract because of the strikes!

I brought up the consequences for ordinary hard working people much earlier in this thread and was shot down!

Other posters in addition to me also contrasted much of the Railways employment rights and salary with that of other public sector workers, and that didn't go down well either.

I hope that we're reaching the natural end for these strikes

 

[Meerkat]

I would imagine even the RMT realise that it would be dubious PR to bring it to disrupted passengers’ attention that their members have lovely final salary pensions....

 

[Tomnick]

I would imagine even the RMT realise that it would be dubious PR to bring it to disrupted passengers’ attention that their members have lovely final salary pensions....

Do they, though? Ours (another TOC) quietly ceased being a final salary scheme a couple of years ago.

 

[Meerkat]

Do they, though? Ours (another TOC) quietly ceased being a final salary scheme a couple of years ago.

Ah, ok sorry. Bet if you did a survey most passengers would assume you got final salary.

 

[Tomnick]

Ah, ok sorry. Bet if you did a survey most passengers would assume you got final salary.

Probably, yes - no surprise when the media keeps telling them how greedy we all are!

 

[jayah]

Problem though is that the only group that is suffering here is the local economy and the passengers. As you say the TOC is fine and so are the strikers as they can easily get what they are "losing" on Saturdays back by offering to work on Sundays - this means that there really is no pressure for either side to reach a conclusion and so we are likely to be talking about strike day 100 on the run up to Christmas 2019 unless something that none of us can see right now happens.

It certainly seems to me that passengers are starting to give up and find alternatives. The penultimate Airedale train yesterday (16:30 from Leeds) was far from full.

The strikers are undoubtedly losing money. There aren't suddenly more Sunday turns to work because there is a strike on.

It is the TOC that isn't really hurting.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

It certainly isn't about pensions. However, the overall terms and conditions for guards are very favourable. A lot more favourable than many of the passengers being bitten by the strike.

Now the action of the guards is hitting other jobs and businesses without a massive loss to the guards, many people will start to question their support for those in a better position than themselves. Add into the mix that many services in the UK and worldwide operate very safely without a guard, then sympathy and support starts to wane. The "safety and security" angle also fades when most Northern services see the guard locked away on the rear cabin after 8pm - this would not change with a second staff member on board.

I suspect that many passengers would now rather see a service without a guard that runs on a Saturday, rather than no services in 2019.

I think if any more Saturday strikes are announced for the New Year it will be the last straw for most leisure passengers. I think most of us have put up with them up till the end of the year because it's a natural break, a time to assess the situation and ask exactly what the strikes have achieved. If the RMT take the same pig-headed action into the new year then clearly the dispute is going to run and run with no end in sight. At which point, leisure travellers will be looking at not just temporary but permanent alternative transport.

 

[jayah]

Precisely my contention. It should be enough that they guarantee guard roles on present terms and pay (subject to appropriate annual increases) for all guards in current employment at Northern for the duration of the franchise. (No member of staff has a guarantee beyond that; while wholesale closure is unlikely at this stage nobody knows what form the next one would take; if Brexit goes badly and the country's economy is destroyed[1] there may well be rafts of closures of unaffordable lines, for instance.)

[1] Not intending to start a Brexit debate so please don't I'm just talking vaguely plausible disaster scenarios that would result in many guard job losses even if DOO is completely stopped.

Like the Southern strike it has never really been about protecting the terms and pay of the current post holders and the lavish guarantees in that area don't resolve the dispute.

 

[Robertj21a]

The strikers are undoubtedly losing money. There aren't suddenly more Sunday turns to work because there is a strike on.

It is the TOC that isn't really hurting.

That's why keeping on calling strikes for 1, 2, 22 or 52 weeks is always going to be a useless path to follow. The RMT leadership is doing their members no favours.

 

[Jonfun]

That's why keeping on calling strikes for 1, 2, 22 or 52 weeks is always going to be a useless path to follow. The RMT leadership is doing their members no favours.

It seems to be working fine so far.

 

[jayah]

That's why all franchise agreements now forbid pay rises over the rate of inflation in the final year without DfT permission.

Was it not always the case at least that DfT had to approve contracts and pay rises signed near the end?

 

[furnessvale]

I think if any more Saturday strikes are announced for the New Year it will be the last straw for most leisure passengers. I think most of us have put up with them up till the end of the year because it's a natural break, a time to assess the situation and ask exactly what the strikes have achieved. If the RMT take the same pig-headed action into the new year then clearly the dispute is going to run and run with no end in sight. At which point, leisure travellers will be looking at not just temporary but permanent alternative transport.

Too late for the two members of my family who used to commute by rail. Now both travel by car and have no intention of returning to rail.

 

[Robertj21a]

It seems to be working fine so far.

So what has been achieved after 39 days of strikes ?

 

[CaptainHaddock]

The strikers are undoubtedly losing money. There aren't suddenly more Sunday turns to work because there is a strike on.

It is the TOC that isn't really hurting.

I doubt Mick Cash is losing too much sleep about his members losing pay, considering his own salary in 2017 was £137,349.

(Source - https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj1o9ikvZffAhWqsqQKHUqrD2MQFjADegQICxAC&url=https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/taxpayersalliance/pages/9153/attachments/original/1504861689/Trade_Union_Rich_List.pdf?1504861689&usg=AOvVaw3c47ZycWCtlvsapvbgArJB

Now, what was that about "fat cats" again?

 

[HH]

This basket case of a Union...

 

[Puffing Devil]

It seems to be working fine so far.

In what way? The RMT is no further forward, the public are turning against the RMT and the railway, passenger numbers are dropping, guards are losing income and no-one seems on course for a win.

If the goal is continued suffering for both sides, then it's a win. Otherwise......

 

[Darandio]

It seems to be working fine so far.

Here is a 'please explain' post if ever I saw one. So, please explain?

 

[Jonfun]

Here is a 'please explain' post if ever I saw one. So, please explain?

Explain what? I genuinely don't know why people think that the course of Saturday strike action is a 'useless course of action' or not achieving anything. Not working Saturdays doesn't appear to be bothering the striking workforce. Striking on other days instead of Saturdays isn't going to be any better for anyone. It seems to be working fine.

 

[LowLevel]

Ah, ok sorry. Bet if you did a survey most passengers would assume you got final salary.

Most railway final salary schemes were killed off 2 or 3 years ago, much to the disgust of people up to and including director level who couldn't be seen to be taking action but were fuming that the unions didn't make more of a fuss over it.

 

[HowardGWR]

Explain what? I genuinely don't know why people think that the course of Saturday strike action is a 'useless course of action' or not achieving anything. Not working Saturdays doesn't appear to be bothering the striking workforce. Striking on other days instead of Saturdays isn't going to be any better for anyone. It seems to be working fine.

I think the poster meant where is the evidence of climb-down by the management? That is what the strike is for isn't it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most railway final salary schemes were killed off 2 or 3 years ago, much to the disgust of people up to and including director level who couldn't be seen to be taking action but were fuming that the unions didn't make more of a fuss over it.

Probably because they recognise that final-salary pension schemes are basically a pyramid scheme and with a contracting population and workforce and increasing population of retirees are impossible to sustain?

 

[LOL The Irony]

It seems to be working fine so far.

SEEMS and SO FAR. Striking into the new year on weekends will be suicide for the RMT but if if they have the brains to realise that is another matter.

 

[Jonfun]

SEEMS and SO FAR. Striking into the new year on weekends will be suicide for the RMT but if if they have the brains to realise that is another matter.

No it won't. We'll just continue to have virtually no Saturday service and have to make alternative arrangements if we want to travel on Saturdays. Unless Northern have some plans in hand to train up new conductors or run replacement buses.

 

[Carlisle]

Here is a 'please explain' post if ever I saw one. So, please explain?

The RMT are probably gambling on a theory that the longer strikes continue without northern either implementing amended contracts for guards or approaching ASLEF for negotiations, the more likley they of DFT will ultimately back down

 

[Puffing Devil]

Unless Northern have some plans in hand to train up new conductors or run replacement buses.

New trains coming soon, DOO with newly recruited conductors.

Replacement bus service on Saturdays.

Redundancy notices for guard grades to follow.

 

[Tomnick]

New trains coming soon, DOO with newly recruited conductors.

Replacement bus service on Saturdays.

Redundancy notices for guard grades to follow.

You seem to have omitted the little bit about achieving agreement with ASLEF?

 

[Darandio]

Explain what? I genuinely don't know why people think that the course of Saturday strike action is a 'useless course of action' or not achieving anything. Not working Saturdays doesn't appear to be bothering the striking workforce. Striking on other days instead of Saturdays isn't going to be any better for anyone. It seems to be working fine.

If it was working fine so far than i'd expect to see some indication of progress but I can't. If someone can give an indication of progress then yes, it is working fine.

Not working Saturdays doesn't appear to be bothering the striking workforce.

I'm reading more and more where the public are getting the perception that these people are paid too much. I disagree. I can see why they would think it though, to see people losing wages on a weekly basis but seemingly not bothered one bit.