Arriva Rail North DOO

[CaptainHaddock]

Explain what? I genuinely don't know why people think that the course of Saturday strike action is a 'useless course of action' or not achieving anything. Not working Saturdays doesn't appear to be bothering the striking workforce. Striking on other days instead of Saturdays isn't going to be any better for anyone. It seems to be working fine.

How about not strkiing at all and instead taking action in a way that convinces Northern to resolve the dispute instead of taking your anger out on the passengers who, until recently, were sympathetic to your cause?

 

[Bletchleyite]

New trains coming soon, DOO with newly recruited conductors.

Replacement bus service on Saturdays.

Redundancy notices for guard grades to follow.

If Northern did want to go for the "nuclear option" a comprehensive replacement bus timetable would be a good start.

 

[LOL The Irony]

How about not strkiing at all and instead taking action in a way that convinces Northern to resolve the dispute instead of taking your anger out on the passengers who, until recently, were sympathetic to your cause?

Because that's too easy.

 

[Tomnick]

Because that's too easy.

If it’s so easy, then would you care to explain the obvious course of action that everyone else must have missed, please?

 

[LOL The Irony]

If it’s so easy, then would you care to explain the obvious course of action that everyone else must have missed, please?

Just stay in the back cab and don't check or sell tickets.

 

[LowLevel]

Just stay in the back cab and don't check or sell tickets.

Failing to conduct revenue duties as industrial action isn't permitted. It was tried once with I think Central Trains and called off with the threat of court.

 

[Jonfun]

How about not strkiing at all and instead taking action in a way that convinces Northern to resolve the dispute instead of taking your anger out on the passengers who, until recently, were sympathetic to your cause?

It isn't my cause; I'm not an RMT member and I don't work for Northern.

If there was an alternative way to get Northern to listen, I'm sure the RMT would have gone down that road. The fact that they haven't and the staff are willing to keep the strike action up speaks volumes.

Northern say they're guaranteeing employment, T&Cs, pay etc; Transport for The North say they don't support trains running around without a second person; so why not just admit the dispute is unnecessary and leave dispatch duties with the guards who are going to be there and paid the same either way?

 

[furnessvale]

You seem to have omitted the little bit about achieving agreement with ASLEF?

Would that be the same ASLEF that watched their secondmen collect their P45s while the NUR guards picked up their coats and bags and moved into the cab in the now vacant secondman's seat?

 

[pemma]

Northern say they're guaranteeing employment, T&Cs, pay etc; Transport for The North say they don't support trains running around without a second person; so why not just admit the dispute is unnecessary and leave dispatch duties with the guards who are going to be there and paid the same either way?

They actually said

Transport for the North does not support removing the second person from trains

https://transportforthenorth.com/christmas-bid-to-curb-rail-disruption/

That leaves a grey area, what if the booked second person is unavailable? I'm sure TfN also don't support cancellations, so which is the lesser of two evils in TfN's view if a second person takes ill or gets injured?

Also don't forget Rail North (a division of TfN) signed off the franchise requirement which only requires a booked second person on board opposed to a guaranteed second person.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Failing to conduct revenue duties as industrial action isn't permitted. It was tried once with I think Central Trains and called off with the threat of court.

They might threaten action if just one or two guards try it, but if every single one did so, it would be impractical to discipline them all!


Besides, aren't guards already allowed to remain in their back cab and not sell tickets if they feel unsafe?

 

[Carlisle]

If there was an alternative way to get Northern to listen, I'm sure the RMT would have gone down that road. ?

Are the current regime running the RMT really interested in talking? Evidence over the past week or two would suggest not, unless virtually all of their demands are met prior to the meeting even taking place

 

[Jonfun]

I'm sure TfN also don't support cancellations, so which is the lesser of two evils in TfN's view if a second person takes ill or gets injured?

As I've made the point before, if a person takes ill or gets injured during the journey, whether Guard, other non-safety critical onboard staff or passenger, the railway industry doesn't just dump them off the train at the first opportunity and leave them there to await an ambulance or make their own way back. The majority of injuries or illnesses I've seen which have delayed or caused cancellation of trains have been to someone who isn't a guard.

 

[yorksrob]

They actually said


https://transportforthenorth.com/christmas-bid-to-curb-rail-disruption/

That leaves a grey area, what if the booked second person is unavailable? I'm sure TfN also don't support cancellations, so which is the lesser of two evils in TfN's view if a second person takes ill or gets injured?

Also don't forget Rail North (a division of TfN) signed off the franchise requirement which only requires a booked second person on board opposed to a guaranteed second person.

Not having a year long strike over the few occasions when a train might have to be cancelled due to the lack of a guard, would clearly be the lesser of two evils. Now if only the contracting authority could articulate that unequivically, we might get progress.

 

[pemma]

As I've made the point before, if a person takes ill or gets injured during the journey, whether Guard, other non-safety critical onboard staff or passenger, the railway industry doesn't just dump them off the train at the first opportunity and leave them there to await an ambulance or make their own way back. The majority of injuries or illnesses I've seen which have delayed or caused cancellation of trains have been to someone who isn't a guard.

Sometimes the passengers are thrown off mid journey so the train can take the sick/injured guard back to their base as an ECS movement, opposed to with passengers on as DOO.

 

[pemma]

Not having a year long strike over the few occasions when a train might have to be cancelled due to the lack of a guard, would clearly be the lesser of two evils. Now if only the contracting authority could articulate that unequivically, we might get progress.

I think everyone expected a dispute but no-one predicted the RMT would demand guards on 100% of services or we'll strike so early on, opposed to waiting for Northern to approach them with their plans in late 2018 or during 2019.

 

[Andyh82]

Leisure travel on Saturdays in January and February must be quite minimal so a RMT strike wouldn’t make as much impact as it did in the summer or in the run up to Christmas.

I could see them moving back to weekdays, maybe the 2nd January? “Yet more misery for commuters to add to the fare rises which are used to send massive profits back to Germany”

 

[Jonfun]

Sometimes the passengers are thrown off mid journey so the train can take the sick/injured guard back to their base as an ECS movement, opposed to with passengers on as DOO.

Come on, let's be realistic, how many Guards would go sick and willingly delay their going home train if they were able to scrounge that last bit of willpower to get through it?

We must be talking single figures here network wide in the last decade.

 

[Tomnick]

Would that be the same ASLEF that watched their secondmen collect their P45s while the NUR guards picked up their coats and bags and moved into the cab in the now vacant secondman's seat?

Quite possibly. I'm not sure how that's relevant, though. Relations certainly aren't brilliant between the two unions, but I'd be surprised (and disappointed) if ASLEF let this one happen without a fight.

That leaves a grey area, what if the booked second person is unavailable? I'm sure TfN also don't support cancellations, so which is the lesser of two evils in TfN's view if a second person takes ill or gets injured?

There have been far more cancellations as the result of this dispute than there would have been in probably a couple of hundred years otherwise. The "lesser of two evils" would be accepting that a tiny number of trains might be cancelled for the booked second person being unavailable.

Come on, let's be realistic, how many Guards would go sick and willingly delay their going home train if they were able to scrounge that last bit of willpower to get through it?

We must be talking single figures here network wide in the last decade.

Presumably jcollins refers to the single incident on the Mid Cheshire line where the Guard did themselves quite a serious injury, with no chance of working the train forward. As you say, probably single figures network wide in the last decade. Most of the time, a guard being taken ill or injured so badly that they can't work the train forward would require an ambulance and subsequent delay.

 

[Bevan Price]

Are the current regime running the RMT really interested in talking? Evidence over the past week or two would suggest not, unless virtually all of their demands are met prior to the meeting even taking place

As I hinted in a separate post, all RMT are doing is to play into the hands of right wing tories and their anti-TU prejudices. When the Brexit shambles is (eventually) sorted out, and Mrs May replaced as PM, the next Tory election manifesto could well include proposals to make strikes virtually impossible in areas such as public transport, health services, etc., with the threat of huge fines on those involved. The anti-labour press will jump on the bandwagon and claim that a Corbyn government would be a puppet of "the unions" - and the next government may well be even more to the right than Thatcher..... Beware. I hope I am wrong, but I fear the worst...

 

[Carlisle]

I think everyone expected a dispute but no-one predicted the RMT would demand guards on 100% of services or we'll strike so early on, opposed to waiting for Northern to approach them with their plans in late 2018 or during 2019.

I disagree. after Southern, this dispute was entirely foreseeable , government should really have shown a willingness to at least consider a change of law a while back if it was determined to avoid further prolonged disruption without having to back down like Scotrail or GWR which gave the union additional incentive to continue their campaign

 

[LOL The Irony]

I disagree. after Southern, this dispute was entirely foreseeable , government should really have shown a willingness to at least consider a change of law a while back if it was determined to avoid further prolonged disruption without having to back down like Scotrail or GWR which gave the union additional incentive to continue their campaign

True. Allowing the guards to strike by refusing to take fares & check tickets would be a better plan.

 

[Kite159]

True. Allowing the guards to strike by refusing to take fares & check tickets would be a better plan.

Although you can say a small number of guards already do that (the back cab lodgers, only popping out to do station duties, the ones who love working 150s)

 

[Halifaxlad]

True. Allowing the guards to strike by refusing to take fares & check tickets would be a better plan.

That idea keeps getting suggested, the RMT keeps stating that it would be illegal.

Speaking of legalities, are the current strikes even legal? Because from what I know the RMT keep balloting their members regarding SWT franchise but NOT the Northern franchise!

 

[Kite159]

That idea keeps getting suggested, the RMT keeps stating that it would be illegal.

Speaking of legalities, are the current strikes even legal? Because from what I know the RMT keep balloting their members regarding SWT franchise but NOT the Northern franchise!

The law changed after the RMT balloted Northern, so they can continue using a ballot which is 2+ years old (?) but have to keep reballoting every 6 months for SWR

 

[Eccles1983]

Guards refusing to carryout out duties and fares is a daft idea.

They are opening themselves up for disciplinary action by doing that. It's very easy to sack a person who isn't carrying out the basics blatantly. Also, in PF areas it could leave passengers who normally buy on board having to deal with the chaps on the barriers.

And are the strikes legal?

No, the goverment and Northern are allowing illegal strikes to take place and are just accepting it. *Rolls eyes*

 

[HH]

Most railway final salary schemes were killed off 2 or 3 years ago

Were they? Can you say which ones? I'm not aware of any TOC ones being killed off.

 

[Andyh82]

True. Allowing the guards to strike by refusing to take fares & check tickets would be a better plan.

That’s very well and good, but how would you then get through the barriers at the station?

 

[LOL The Irony]

That’s very well and good, but how would you then get through the barriers at the station?

Northern would have the inconvenience of having to employ staff to sell tickets on those days.

 

[Puffing Devil]

That’s very well and good, but how would you then get through the barriers at the station?

Just as you do now when no guard appears - queue at the ticket desk before the gateline.

 

[pemma]

I disagree. after Southern, this dispute was entirely foreseeable , government should really have shown a willingness to at least consider a change of law a while back if it was determined to avoid further prolonged disruption without having to back down like Scotrail or GWR which gave the union additional incentive to continue their campaign

The terms for the Northern franchise had been agreed and the winning bid chosen before the RMT started a dispute on Southern. Don't forget the Northern ITT was put out before the General Election in 2015 as if the Conservatives were saying look we care about the North after all - we're giving you new trains and additional services, the fact that it mentioned DCO would only have put off the far left who hated New Labour as much as the Tories, so we're never going to be incentivised to vote Tory.

A change in the law was part of the Conservative manifesto but they didn't get it through parliament in time to affect a ballot early on in the Northern franchise.