Arriva Rail North DOO

[Andrew32]

Over the last two weeks a joint working party of Northern and RMT representatives have met to start work on considering a range of options seeking to resolve RMT’s current dispute on the role of the guard and introduction of Driver Controlled Operation (DCO).

We are pleased that these talks have started and will continue in the coming weeks. A terms of reference has been agreed by the joint working party, part of which was that all discussions would remain confidential as we work through these options together. Northern and RMT will look to provide a more detailed update in due course.

Kind regards,

David Brown, Managing Director Northern & Michael Thompson, Regional Organiser RMT

 

[Overspeed110]

Over the last two weeks a joint working party of Northern and RMT representatives have met to start work on considering a range of options seeking to resolve RMT’s current dispute on the role of the guard and introduction of Driver Controlled Operation (DCO).

We are pleased that these talks have started and will continue in the coming weeks. A terms of reference has been agreed by the joint working party, part of which was that all discussions would remain confidential as we work through these options together. Northern and RMT will look to provide a more detailed update in due course.

Kind regards,

David Brown, Managing Director Northern & Michael Thompson, Regional Organiser RMT

Let's hope that these talks bring an end to this dispute, but for me the only acceptable outcome is a guarantee of a second safety critical person on every train, regardless of who does what with door control.

 

[pt_mad]

Let's hope that these talks bring an end to this dispute, but for me the only acceptable outcome is a guarantee of a second safety critical person on every train, regardless of who does what with door control.

What has been agreed with Greater Anglia? Could that be the kind of outcome to expect?

And if the stakeholders wouldn't budge on Southern, are they likely to on Northern?

 

[Carlisle]

What has been agreed with Greater Anglia? Could that be the kind of outcome to expect?
?

Isn’t the GA deal a bit of a red herring in this debate, given 60% is already DOO with the vast majority having been that way for around 30 years already, give or take .

 

[pt_mad]

Isn’t the GA deal a bit of a red herring in this debate, given 60% is already DOO with the vast majority having been that way for around 30 years already, give or take .

But what is the deal though, in two or three sentences? It may put some context to this.

 

[Carlisle]

But what is the deal though, in two or three sentences? It may put some context to this.

As far as I know, outside the existing DOO area , a door trained conductor must be present in order for the train to run .

 

[387star]

The Greater Anglia Deal is relevant

From what I understand the Norfolk branches are very rural in nature and bear in mind these services were once run by Anglia Railways which had hardly any DOO to speak of

Deal means a safety crit person guaranteed with door operation handed over to the driver. However guards will remain door trained and will operate doors to retain competency on specific rostered turns

 

[woodmally]

Let's hope that these talks bring an end to this dispute, but for me the only acceptable outcome is a guarantee of a second safety critical person on every train, regardless of who does what with door control.

Well to be honest like I've said before. I support DOO but if it means no strikes am prepared to accept a guard.

 

[kw12]

The Greater Anglia Deal is relevant

From what I understand the Norfolk branches are very rural in nature and bear in mind these services were once run by Anglia Railways which had hardly any DOO to speak of

Deal means a safety crit person guaranteed with door operation handed over to the driver. However guards will remain door trained and will operate doors to retain competency on specific rostered turns

So Anglia guards will be trained to do something they will never do apart from on the turns specifying rostered for them to retain this competency.

Really?

 

[IanXC]

So Anglia guards will be trained to do something they will never do apart from on the turns specifying rostered for them to retain this competency.

Really?

Which is to allow services to operate as normal in the case of DOO equipment failure.

 

[northwichcat]

Relations aren't improving with Northern saying Sunday cancellations are down to staff not making themselves available for work and Mick Cash responding calling Northern management Donald Trumpesque.

 

[Robertj21a]

Relations aren't improving with Northern saying Sunday cancellations are down to staff not making themselves available for work and Mick Cash responding calling Northern management Donald Trumpesque.

About time that Mick Cash was replaced.

 

[Carlisle]

Relations aren't improving with Northern saying Sunday cancellations are down to staff not making themselves available for work and Mick Cash responding calling Northern management Donald Trumpesque.

As discussed in other threads, the old BR national agreement of everyone being given a certain number of rostered Sunday’s per year shouldn’t really have been replaced anywhere until a compressive deal that included Sunday’s in the working week could be struck, as I believe it was early on with the likes of SWT, so not northern’s fault really it’s the old FNW and co I believe,

 

[Bromley boy]

As discussed in other threads, the old BR national agreement of everyone being given a certain number of rostered Sunday’s per year shouldn’t really have been replaced anywhere until a compressive deal that included Sunday’s in the working week could be struck, as I believe it was early on with the likes of SWT, so not northern’s fault really it’s the old FNW and co I believe,

Keep in mind that it is the TOCs rather than the unions who want to keep Sundays outside.

 

[Carlisle]

Keep in mind that it is the TOCs rather than the unions who want to keep Sundays outside.

Yes I appreciate that, I didn’t intend to imply the mess was all the unions fault, clearly SWT and its unions were smart enough to strike a deal ages ago, but other TOCs seemed to just want to fudge the issue .

 

[a_c_skinner]

Northern is being disingenuous, they should have said "Sunday working is voluntary and ..." . Their announcement makes it sound like it is the employees' fault whereas it is simply not. Mr Cash should have couched his reply in these terms too.

I don't wish to seem unsympathetic but my whole working life included compulsory night and weekend working as a hospital doctor and any staffing regime that hinges on voluntary overtime is foolish - by the employers obviously.

 

[Moonshot]

Keep in mind that it is the TOCs rather than the unions who want to keep Sundays outside.

Which actually suits the staff as well. There is an agreement in place which allows 10% of the guards to completely opt out of being considered for Sunday working.

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't really care whose 'fault' it might have been in the past. It's now 2018 and the travelling public have every right to expect the scheduled services to operate, Sundays or not.

 

[Moonshot]

I don't really care whose 'fault' it might have been in the past. It's now 2018 and the travelling public have every right to expect the scheduled services to operate, Sundays or not.

So surely the crux of the current dispute is that the passengers do not want a service cancelled IF a guard is not available for that particular service?

 

[scrapy]

The covering of Sunday turns on Northern is a completely separate issue to the DOO dispute and maybe should have it's own thread.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The covering of Sunday turns on Northern is a completely separate issue to the DOO dispute and maybe should have it's own thread.

I'm not sure it entirely is, as it is a useful barometer of industrial relations short of actual strikes when a large number of staff do not come forward. Mind you, the good weather is causing that to happen anyway.

 

[Robertj21a]

So surely the crux of the current dispute is that the passengers do not want a service cancelled IF a guard is not available for that particular service?

I doubt that many passengers have ever wanted their service to be cancelled if a guard is not available. For many, they may well not know whether a guard should be on board anyway.

 

[Moonshot]

The covering of Sunday turns on Northern is a completely separate issue to the DOO dispute and maybe should have it's own thread.

No its not. Guards are required on every single Northern Service , be it a weekday or Sunday.

 

[387star]

6 August 2018

RMT Press Office:

RMT calls on new Southern Rail chief to commit to Guards on trains as union looks at next steps in Britain’s longest running industrial dispute

RAIL UNION RMT today wrote to the new Managing Director of Southern/GTR, Patrick Verwer, requesting that he takes an early initiative to resolve Britain’s longest running industrial dispute on Southern Rail over the axing of guards and the rolling out of Driver Only Operation.

The union has pointed out to Mr Verwer that a deal has recently been concluded on Greater Anglia underpinning the guard guarantee, which follows similar agreements including settlements covering the whole of Scotland and Wales, and that his appointment presents an opportunity to resolve the Southern dispute which is well into its third year.

RMT has requested a response from Mr Verwer by Thursday, 9th August, to allow the union executive to consider the company’s current position and make any decision on future industrial action
RMT General Secretary, Mick Cash said:
“RMT members have been fighting to defend the principle of a safe, secure and accessible railway for all on Southern Rail for well over two years now and the arrival of a new Managing Director presents both sides with an opportunity to take a constructive approach and work on an agreement that matches the best practice in the industry in the wake of recent settlements including the deal on Greater Anglia.

“The events in Brighton on Saturday after the end of Pride illustrate yet again the need for a properly staffed railway where safety and access comes first. That is exactly what RMT has been fighting for.
“We have requested a response from Southern/GTR by Thursday to allow our Executive to consider the company position and to look at the next steps in the dispute.”


Ends.

 

[Moonshot]

I doubt that many passengers have ever wanted their service to be cancelled if a guard is not available. For many, they may well not know whether a guard should be on board anyway.

So in other words, many passengers already think that its just the driver on board?

 

[js1000]

I'm completely for guards on trains and support the 7am-7pm sporadic strikes to make this point clear. I understand there are some concerns over the future of their jobs but there are genuine safety concerns that I appreciate.

I've had a couple of incidents where a passenger has fallen ill/collapsed. The only way of corroborating that it is a genuine incident is for the guard to come down the train. Then he/she can inform the train driver to ask for priority into the station.

However the ways hold TOCs and passengers to ransom with issues like Sunday working is ridiculous. It's 2018. There's a fine line to what is fair but often this line is broken by both sides.

 

[Robertj21a]

6 August 2018

RMT Press Office:

RMT calls on new Southern Rail chief to commit to Guards on trains as union looks at next steps in Britain’s longest running industrial dispute

RAIL UNION RMT today wrote to the new Managing Director of Southern/GTR, Patrick Verwer, requesting that he takes an early initiative to resolve Britain’s longest running industrial dispute on Southern Rail over the axing of guards and the rolling out of Driver Only Operation.

The union has pointed out to Mr Verwer that a deal has recently been concluded on Greater Anglia underpinning the guard guarantee, which follows similar agreements including settlements covering the whole of Scotland and Wales, and that his appointment presents an opportunity to resolve the Southern dispute which is well into its third year.

RMT has requested a response from Mr Verwer by Thursday, 9th August, to allow the union executive to consider the company’s current position and make any decision on future industrial action
RMT General Secretary, Mick Cash said:
“RMT members have been fighting to defend the principle of a safe, secure and accessible railway for all on Southern Rail for well over two years now and the arrival of a new Managing Director presents both sides with an opportunity to take a constructive approach and work on an agreement that matches the best practice in the industry in the wake of recent settlements including the deal on Greater Anglia.

“The events in Brighton on Saturday after the end of Pride illustrate yet again the need for a properly staffed railway where safety and access comes first. That is exactly what RMT has been fighting for.
“We have requested a response from Southern/GTR by Thursday to allow our Executive to consider the company position and to look at the next steps in the dispute.”


Ends.

Unbelievable !!

So Mick Cash highlights that the dispute has now lasted for over two years - but expects a response within 3 days !

Muppet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So in other words, many passengers already think that its just the driver on board?

I suspect there are certainly people who think LNR is DOO given how rarely you actually see the guards. It's quite marked that in Northernland they near enough always patrol the train in some form.

 

[Moonshot]

I suspect there are certainly people who think LNR is DOO given how rarely you actually see the guards. It's quite marked that in Northernland they near enough always patrol the train in some form.

Well I certainly do that myself, unless its absolutely rammed or there is no gangway connection between units. But I have to admit , there is a chunky number of guards who are quite happy to sit in the back cab and not move except to open doors. They do us no favours whatsoever

 

[Robertj21a]

So in other words, many passengers already think that its just the driver on board?

I'm not convinced that they take too much notice really. To many, the guard is just someone who checks to see if they've got the right ticket - and who, on some trains, may open/close doors or ring bells etc. The whole safety issue has been spectacularly misplayed by the RMT, who spent much of the earlier days of these disputes ranting on about 'Fat Cats', ownership by foreign operators, and the door opening/closing saga (without explaining the associated safety issues).