Attention conductor. Call for help activated.

[thelem]

I was on a 313 the other day, and there was an announcement every 30 seconds or so saying something like "Attention conductor. Call for help activated." This went on for at least 30 minutes, and the conductor didn't seem to be paying any attention - he was just doing his normal duties such as dispatch and selling tickets.

I assume this meant someone had pressed one of the big red buttons in the train, but if so, shouldn't the conductor have been finding out what was going on?

 

[yorkie]

What Train Company was this? I will guess Southern as FCC and Greater Anglia are Driver Only Operated (DOO).

 

[Anvil1984]

It may have been a known fault with the Call For Aid system and being unable to isolate it

 

[thelem]

Yes, it was Southern. If it was a faulty system then it was effectively operating without a call for aid system. As trains always have them (and always have done if old films are anything to go by), I assumed they were a requirement for a train to be in service.

 

[Anvil1984]

Not all trains have them. A lot have just the traditional PASSCOM which puts the brakes on straightaway

 

[thelem]

How does a call for aid system differ from a passcom? If I was in a different carriage to the conductor, could I stop the train with a faulty call for aid system?

 

[Anvil1984]

call for aid is basically a system which alerts staff to a potential problem, some systems have facilities where staff can talk to that person via intercom, in some it just illuminates a little light / sends off an announcement. It doesnt interfere (usually( with the brake.

The passcomm is the older method where it immediately puts the brakes into emergency

The trains will always have at least a passcom and the newer ones have a call for aid is an additional tool, I wouldnt suggest experimenting as you may pull the wrong one

 

[ainsworth74]

Aren't call for aid buttons only provided at wheelchair spaces and in universal access toilets? Meanwhile Passcoms are provided throughout the train and on more modern trains can be overridden by the driver to allow them to stop in a more useful/safer location (such as a station or not in a tunnel) whilst talking to whoever activated it to determine the reason for said activation. That was my understanding at least.

 

[thelem]

Ah, thanks. It looks like this is a button that was installed when the 313s were refurbished and is intended for wheelchair users (and very useful too - it's presumably quite easy for the conductor / platform staff to forget that they need to get a ramp out at a certain time, which could leave them stuck on the train going to totally the wrong place).

I was confusing it with the passcom.

 

[Anvil1984]

Aren't call for aid buttons only provided at wheelchair spaces and in universal access toilets? Meanwhile Passcoms are provided throughout the train and on more modern trains can be overridden by the driver to allow them to stop in a more useful/safer location (such as a station or not in a tunnel) whilst talking to whoever activated it to determine the reason for said activation. That was my understanding at least.

Thats the one, basically brought for wheelchair passengers who need assistance / to reduce the amount of emergency stops due to someone pulling it thinking its the toilet flush

 

[D2022]

Aren't call for aid buttons only provided at wheelchair spaces and in universal access toilets? Meanwhile Passcoms are provided throughout the train and on more modern trains can be overridden by the driver to allow them to stop in a more useful/safer location (such as a station or not in a tunnel) whilst talking to whoever activated it to determine the reason for said activation. That was my understanding at least.

I believe PASSCOM can be over ridden, I have been on a Pendo at speed and someone puller the lever in my vestibule as smoke was seen and smelt from some sort of cupboard. We went the entire was through the Lune Valley before we stopped and the guard found the bloke who pulled it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are the Mk1s in mainline charter sets still just a pressure drop on the PASSCOM or do they now dump the brakes?

 

[ainsworth74]

I believe PASSCOM can be over ridden

Is what I said?

Meanwhile Passcoms are provided throughout the train and on more modern trains can be overridden by the driver to allow them to stop in a more useful/safer location.

 

[W230]

I believe PASSCOM can be over ridden,

Depends on the unit. For example, 319's can't be overiden by the driver but 377's can. I'm assuming that other new generation units built will allow the driver to override it.

I have been on a Pendo at speed and someone puller the lever in my vestibule as smoke was seen and smelt from some sort of cupboard. We went the entire was through the Lune Valley before we stopped and the guard found the bloke who pulled it.

On the units with PCA override the train will continue to the first suitable place they could deal with the situation - though I don't know how far it is through the Lune Valley!

They wouldn't be stopping on viaducts, in tunnels etc unless the train was in danger.

 

[Fincra5]

All it does is play that message until the PA phone, in the middle panel, is reset. Or if that doesn't work some switches need flicking

 

[John Webb]

All Passenger Communication operations, ancient and modern, never put the brakes full on - only made a partial application so that the train could be worked on and stopped in a safe place - eg platform, rather than grind to a halt in a tunnel or on a viaduct where it would be unsafe for both crew and passengers.

 

[Tomnick]

All Passenger Communication operations, ancient and modern, never put the brakes full on - only made a partial application so that the train could be worked on and stopped in a safe place - eg platform, rather than grind to a halt in a tunnel or on a viaduct where it would be unsafe for both crew and passengers.

I was under the impression that this wasn't the case on various 2nd gen DMUs - my understanding is that any passcom activation on these resulted in a full brake application with no ability for it to be overridden.

 

[A-driver]

All Passenger Communication operations, ancient and modern, never put the brakes full on - only made a partial application so that the train could be worked on and stopped in a safe place - eg platform, rather than grind to a halt in a tunnel or on a viaduct where it would be unsafe for both crew and passengers.

Perhaps I'm mis understanding that but all units I have ever signed have had a full e brake application which can't be overridden until the alarm is re set with the exception of an override pedal on 377+365 and an override button on 313? 455,456,317,321 all have an immediate and un preventable emerg brake application if the pass comm is activated.

 

[Anvil1984]

On a 14X OR 15X the passcom will put the brakes into immediate full service application, the only way of bypassing is operating the EBS and that's once the train has been been brought to a sta d or if its been operated prior to pass comm being pulled

 

[bigdelboy]

Accidently Activated the thing struggling round with a big bag on my shoulder on a 377 small loo a littlle north of watford .... quite scared suddenly by the drivers voice asking me if I was ok ... and worried about having to pay a fine. Dont believe the brakes came on. Driver said this happened quite frequently.

Probably a significant cause of 'Can the guard please contact the driver' annoucements (that often mean my train is having or about to have a delay ... so i fear them somewhat).

 

[BestWestern]

All Passenger Communication operations, ancient and modern, never put the brakes full on - only made a partial application so that the train could be worked on and stopped in a safe place - eg platform, rather than grind to a halt in a tunnel or on a viaduct where it would be unsafe for both crew and passengers.

There is very definitely a full brake application on most/all older units. This applies whether the train is moving or already at a stand - many cases of a Driver being unable to release the brake upon restarting from a station stop are due to some prat pulling a Passcom on their way out of the train. Hilarious, of course :roll:

Thankfully the powers that be saw sense a few years ago and most fairly recent builds have the ability for the Driver to override or cancel the alarm, and/or to speak with the person who activated it. You may recall the recent discussion regarding the female passenger who was 'dragged' by an FCC train when she (deliberately) jammed her hand in the doors expecting them to reopen. There was much debate over whether the Driver should have reset the Passcom, as he did.

 

[M60lad]

I know on TPX Desiros the information screen sometimes come up with "Can a member of staff please answer the intercom ****" not to sure what causes this message to come up though I'm guessing maybe someone has pulled the Call for Aid or PASSCOM.

Out of interest with the modern Call for Aid or the older PASSCOM does anything come up in the drivers cabs telling them that one of these has been activated.

Also am I right in thinking that a train can't set off until all the amber lights on the exterior of the train have gone off

 

[ainsworth74]

"Can a member of staff please answer the intercom ****"

That'll be the driver wanting to talk to the guard (who could be in anywhere in the train hence the message on the PIS).

Out of interest with the modern Call for Aid or the older PASSCOM does anything come up in the drivers cabs telling them that one of these has been activated.

On trains with TMS they'll often not only tell you that it's been activated but tell you in which carriage it's been activated. On older units that don't have such modern wizardry you have to walk through the train till you find it (so if a call for aid has been tripped it's not uncommon to see, on East Coast at least, staff rushing around to the various call for aid points trying to find which one has been activated!). At least that's my understanding.

Also am I right in thinking that a train can't set off until all the amber lights on the exterior of the train have gone off

Yes until the lights have gone off inter-lock has not been achieved so the brakes cannot be released.

 

[Aictos]

Yes until the lights have gone off inter-lock has not been achieved so the brakes cannot be released.

This doesn't apply to slam door stock though such as the HSTs or the MK3 loco hauled sets as a door handle only needs to be on the catch and the interlock lights will go out hence the brakes WILL be released.

I've known HSTs to be dispatched with the door handle on the catch and a emergency stop having to be applied to stop the train and the door made secure before continuing in service.

 

[A-driver]

On most multiple units the pass comm will put the orange hazard light on outside the coach it has been activated in. That means crew can narrow down the offending coach (although you can put serious money on a DOO train that it will be the back coach every time). Those lights also indicate various faults which may prevent power or brake releases and most obviously indicate if a door is open on a coach.

 

[ainsworth74]

This doesn't apply to slam door stock though such as the HSTs or the MK3 loco hauled sets as a door handle only needs to be on the catch and the interlock lights will go out hence the brakes WILL be released.

Yes of course, I was in 'Unit' mode and total discounted slam-door stock from my thinking

 

[Be3G]

I recall once being on a Southern train (coming back from Eastbourne I think) when a passenger alarm was activated, and the guard and driver subsequently had a conversation – which was broadcast for all to hear through the train's PA system. I assume that was a glitch (or someone pressing the wrong button!)? It was quite amusing, anyway – I seem to recall someone had got stuck in a toilet. Seemed to be sorted out quickly enough anyway.

 

[A-driver]

I recall once being on a Southern train (coming back from Eastbourne I think) when a passenger alarm was activated, and the guard and driver subsequently had a conversation – which was broadcast for all to hear through the train's PA system. I assume that was a glitch (or someone pressing the wrong button!)? It was quite amusing, anyway – I seem to recall someone had got stuck in a toilet. Seemed to be sorted out quickly enough anyway.

It does happen-its the same phone but the buttons for pa and cab-cab are next to each other. The evening standard reported a few years back that a driver accidentally made a pa instead of cc to tell the guard just outside clapham junction that she had had a spad.

 

[BestWestern]

This doesn't apply to slam door stock though such as the HSTs or the MK3 loco hauled sets as a door handle only needs to be on the catch and the interlock lights will go out hence the brakes WILL be released.

I've known HSTs to be dispatched with the door handle on the catch and a emergency stop having to be applied to stop the train and the door made secure before continuing in service.

There are a couple of issues with the HST stock (and I presume the loco hauled rakes are the same) which allow the train to move with doors not secure. There is no door/brake interlock system, so the central door locking (CDL) system is completely self contained and has no ability to hold the brakes on or prevent the Driver from powering up. It is perfectly possible for an HST to move with the CDL released and all doors unlocked - indeed, incidents (thankfully rare) have occurred where a train has stopped, the Guard has unlocked the doors, and the train has moved again in the platform with pax attempting to board or alight. In addition, the CDL cannot identify a door which is open or 'on the catch'. The locking bolt will simply not drop into the door correctly, but the system has no way of detecting this and so the hazard lights are unaffected and will extinguish once the CDL is activated. This is why it is not uncommon for problems to occur with doors not being fully closed and secure. The only safety system is the eyes of the Guard and dispatchers, and it is unavoidable, bearing in mind the size of the train and the nature of a busy platform, that these things will happen every once in a while.

 

[Aictos]

There are a couple of issues with the HST stock (and I presume the loco hauled rakes are the same) which allow the train to move with doors not secure. There is no door/brake interlock system, so the central door locking (CDL) system is completely self contained and has no ability to hold the brakes on or prevent the Driver from powering up. It is perfectly possible for an HST to move with the CDL released and all doors unlocked - indeed, incidents (thankfully rare) have occurred where a train has stopped, the Guard has unlocked the doors, and the train has moved again in the platform with pax attempting to board or alight. In addition, the CDL cannot identify a door which is open or 'on the catch'. The locking bolt will simply not drop into the door correctly, but the system has no way of detecting this and so the hazard lights are unaffected and will extinguish once the CDL is activated. This is why it is not uncommon for problems to occur with doors not being fully closed and secure. The only safety system is the eyes of the Guard and dispatchers, and it is unavoidable, bearing in mind the size of the train and the nature of a busy platform, that these things will happen every once in a while.

Exactly, well said

 

[Kentish Paul]

Back in my commuting days (late 90s) I witnessed a 12 x VEP leave Cannon St ECS with all the platform side doors open. It was a much quicker turnaround than usual. Being ECS it was heading from platform 7 around to Blackfriars to reverse and head off to Hither Green via E&C, Cambria Junction and Nunhead. I was about to approach gate staff when I saw platform staff using their radios whilst heading to the platform end.

I never heard any more so assume it was stopped in time.

I also witnessed EPB stock being despatched from London Bridge in the down direction with the a door open and a platform guy waiting with his arm outstretched to shut it as it went by. (very quiet 05:50hrs)

Happy days.