Avanti London to Glasgow Record Attempt 07/05/2025

[dk1]

You trying to put yourself in the frame as co-driver for the next Avanti attempt?

Absolutely It’s the only thing that makes the job interesting these days.

 

[RedKing]

As many times as I want, it’s a forum
At the end of it, what is the benefit of a ‘record breaking run’ to the fare paying passenger? Are Avanti (or whoever follows) going to do a regular time tabled non stop service between London-Glasgow? I very much doubt it.

A forum where you ask a question and get an answer. You keep asking the same question.

As for benefits?

It shows it can be done, that could encourage faster overall journey times, even if it isn't a direct replicate of the record attempt - benefit

It's good publicity. Even if only a few extra people decide to take the train over the car as a result of it, that's more revenue for the TOC and less subsidy from the Government - benefit

Politicians will be all over it. "Connectivity" between England and Scotland, etc etc. That could result in more investment - benefit

The increased media attention on the postponement of this run (signal issues) could add an impetus for said fault to be rectified sooner, positively impacting regular services through the area - benefit

Not so much for the fare paying customer, but isn't it a charity event? If it raises vital funds for a charity, I'd say that's a... - benefit

 

[notadriver]

I wonder how long the replacement bus would take?

I’m a PCV driver. The 62 mph speed and outside lane ban is a massive hindrance. 7h36 came out in the route calculator. A stop at the services has to be made to change drivers on top of that.

 

[Efini92]

Absolutely It’s the only thing that makes the job interesting these days.

You’d have to drive it if you came with me

 

[dk1]

You’d have to drive it if you came with me

Try and stop me. It’s what I do best.

 

[cambsy]

dk1 I think well have to get you trained on the 390’s and the Euston-Glasgow route knowledge, then let you off the leash and see what you can do, as you do seem to know how to get good performance of whatever your driving, and not afraid to drive hard and in spirited manner, ideal for this record attempt. They need driver who know how to push what they are driving, and not afraid to within driving standards, bet you would love a chance at this.

 

[dk1]

dk1 I think well have to get you trained on the 390’s and the Euston-Glasgow route knowledge, then let you off the leash and see what you can do, as you do seem to know how to get good performance of whatever your driving, and not afraid to drive hard and in spirited manner, ideal for this record attempt. They need driver who know how to push what they are driving, and not afraid to within driving standards, bet you would love a chance at this.

I’m sure there are some excellent drivers at Avanti and ex-Virgin too. It’s very much down to individual company protocol.

 

[43066]

dk1 I think well have to get you trained on the 390’s and the Euston-Glasgow route knowledge, then let you off the leash and see what you can do, as you do seem to know how to get good performance of whatever your driving, and not afraid to drive hard and in spirited manner, ideal for this record attempt. They need driver who know how to push what they are driving, and not afraid to within driving standards, bet you would love a chance at this.

Or just teach him the traction and give him a route conductor.

 

[dangie]

Can I ask a totally theoretical question? Assuming it is possible to work out that is.

Assuming there were clear signals all he way and no speed restrictions, if a Pendolino was able to travel at line speed for the whole 400 mile London-Glasgow, what would the approximate journey time be?

I’ve read that the East Coast Main Line Kings Cross to Edinburgh fastest time is 3hrs 29mins achieved by 91012 and a shortened mark 4 rake on a non-stop press run in September 1991. Would it be possible for a WCML Pendolino to equal or beat that time?

 

[notadriver]

Can I ask a totally theoretical question? Assuming it is possible to work out that is.

Assuming there were clear signals all he way and no speed restrictions, if a Pendolino was able to travel at line speed for the whole 400 mile London-Glasgow, what would the approximate journey time be?

I’ve read that the East Coast Main Line Kings Cross to Edinburgh fastest time is 3hrs 29mins achieved by 91012 and a shortened mark 4 rake on a non-stop press run in September 1991. Would it be possible for a WCML Pendolino to equal or beat that time?

Didn’t that 91 spend a significant amount of time above 125 mph ? Pendolinos are restricted to that speed.

 

[dangie]

Didn’t that 91 spend a significant amount of time above 125 mph ? Pendolinos are restricted to that speed.

I didn’t know that, it was just something I’d read

 

[hexagon789]

Can I ask a totally theoretical question? Assuming it is possible to work out that is.

Assuming there were clear signals all he way and no speed restrictions, if a Pendolino was able to travel at line speed for the whole 400 mile London-Glasgow, what would the approximate journey time be?

I’ve read that the East Coast Main Line Kings Cross to Edinburgh fastest time is 3hrs 29mins achieved by 91012 and a shortened mark 4 rake on a non-stop press run in September 1991. Would it be possible for a WCML Pendolino to equal or beat that time?

Didn’t that 91 spend a significant amount of time above 125 mph ? Pendolinos are restricted to that speed.

The 225 run was permitted to do 140mph wherever 125mph was permitted. 143mph was touched south of Darlington and 135mph at Musselburgh for example.

 

[Railperf]

I’m sure there are some excellent drivers at Avanti and ex-Virgin too. It’s very much down to individual company protocol.

@dk1 you know it makes sense - take the offer. Similarly a certain PCV driver who frequents this forum would very quickly exploit a 390 to the full. We are lucky in this country to still have some very enthusiastic drivers who love the job and can 'drive' a train.

 

[notadriver]

The 225 run was permitted to do 140mph wherever 125mph was permitted. 143mph was touched south of Darlington and 135mph at Musselburgh for example.

135 mph at Musselburgh is impossible.

 

[hexagon789]

135 mph at Musselburgh is impossible.

It's in the official log, I don't think I misread the location but let me double check.

 

[cambsy]

The Sept 1991 record breaking King’s Cross-Edinburgh run of 3hrs 29 mins, was run with a 5 car shortened 225 set, and was allowed 140mph dispensation on 125mph stretches, except where curves required 135mph etc, and other dispensations above line speed. It reached York in about 94-95 mins, then Newcastle in about 2hrs 19 mins, then Edinburgh in 3hrs 29 mins. this record i think will stand for all time as very much doubt an Azuma would be given Network Rail etc permission to run at 140mph and doubt the money would be spent fettling up the track and OHLE for these speeds, but if this could happen then id think an Azima etc could shave few mins off this record with their superior acceleration And braking.

The trouble with Pendolino’s exceeding their 125mph max speed by more than 2-3mph, is the Tilt Authorisation Speed supervision(TASS) system which stops over speeding round the curves etc, and Can’t just be disabled, as when it not read a balise it disables the tilt until it reads another balise. So it there was work around this,then they might have dispensate speeds above 125mph and smashed APT record. The 225 record run was just given dispensation to exceed 125mph with necessary extra staff in the cab.

 

[Railperf]

The 225 run was permitted to do 140mph wherever 125mph was permitted. 143mph was touched south of Darlington and 135mph at Musselburgh for example.

Fastest north of Newcastle according to the log published in Railway magazine was 130mph at Lucker, 129mph at Scremerston. The account describes 135mph being achieved between Prestonpans and Musselburgh, but the log is not detailed enough to show this.

 

[hexagon789]

Fastest north of Newcastle according to the log published in Railway magazine was 130mph at Lucker, 129mph at Scremerston. The account describes 135mph being achieved between Prestonpans and Musselburgh, but the log is not detailed enough to show this.

That's possibly what I've picked up then.

 

[notadriver]

That's possibly what I've picked up then.

Fastest north of Newcastle according to the log published in Railway magazine was 130mph at Lucker, 129mph at Scremerston. The account describes 135mph being achieved between Prestonpans and Musselburgh, but the log is not detailed enough to show this.

Wallyford most likely but you’d need to be hard on the brakes for Musselburgh which is on a bend and has a 95 mph PSR.

 

[A S Leib]

What's the record for Paddington to Temple Meads, Cardiff Central or any other attempts in that direction?

 

[hexagon789]

Wallyford most likely but you’d need to be hard on the brakes for Musselburgh which is on a bend and has a 95 mph PSR.

But if you were taking PSRs a little liberally?

 

[Railperf]

The Sept 1991 record breaking King’s Cross-Edinburgh run of 3hrs 29 mins, was run with a 5 car shortened 225 set, and was allowed 140mph dispensation on 125mph stretches, except where curves required 135mph etc, and other dispensations above line speed. It reached York in about 94-95 mins, then Newcastle in about 2hrs 19 mins, then Edinburgh in 3hrs 29 mins. this record i think will stand for all time as very much doubt an Azuma would be given Network Rail etc permission to run at 140mph and doubt the money would be spent fettling up the track and OHLE for these speeds, but if this could happen then id think an Azima etc could shave few mins off this record with their superior acceleration And braking.

The trouble with Pendolino’s exceeding their 125mph max speed by more than 2-3mph, is the Tilt Authorisation Speed supervision(TASS) system which stops over speeding round the curves etc, and Can’t just be disabled, as when it not read a balise it disables the tilt until it reads another balise. So it there was work around this,then they might have dispensate speeds above 125mph and smashed APT record. The 225 record run was just given dispensation to exceed 125mph with necessary extra staff in the cab.

I'm reliably told that a 390 with newish wheelsets will hold 127mph without TASS intervention, but with audible warnings and requires an experienced driver to manage the speed precisely. I was aboard the Southeastern Ashford to St Pancras record attempts and was told that the approach to St Pancras was driven right on the limit of the braking curve demanded by the French based KVB safety systems to monitor and prevent over speed. Service trains would never approach at those speeds due to risk of brake intervention.

 

[sprinterguy]

What's the record for Paddington to Temple Meads, Cardiff Central or any other attempts in that direction?

62 minutes 33 seconds between Paddington and Temple Meads for the televised 'Top of the Pops' HST run in August 1984.

 

[Railperf]

62 minutes 33 seconds between Paddington and Temple Meads for the televised 'Top of the Pops' HST run in August 1984.

Featured speeds of up to 133mph according to the logs I have seen. And pre Ladbroke Grove accident speed restrictions which allowed much faster exit from Paddington through the suburbs.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Would be interesting if you cold put together a "Super Pendo" set by removing all of the trailer coaches and replacing them with motors. I bet you'd get quite a bit more acceleration then!

 

[Railperf]

Would be interesting if you cold put together a "Super Pendo" set by removing all of the trailer coaches and replacing them with motors. I bet you'd get quite a bit more acceleration then!

A Pendolino has enough power but the way it delivers that power from the start seems to have been conservatively set.

 

[FrontSideBus]

I was going to mention that. Is full power setting really full power or is the traction control system following a conservative curve? Not like the good old days when notch 5 really was full beans!

 

[sprinterguy]

Would be interesting if you cold put together a "Super Pendo" set by removing all of the trailer coaches and replacing them with motors. I bet you'd get quite a bit more acceleration then!

Thinking about it, you couldn't remove/replace all the trailer cars, or the train would be suffering from a critical lack of pantographs (and transformers) and be going nowhere. Removing the central trailer from a 9-car set (reverting to the form that the first 34 sets were delivered in) would be about the best power to weight ratio that could be achieved while maintaining the two-pan formation, I think.

 

[hexagon789]

A Pendolino has enough power but the way it delivers that power from the start seems to have been conservatively set.

I was going to mention that. Is full power setting really full power or is the traction control system following a conservative curve? Not like the good old days when notch 5 really was full beans!

I was under the impression that so long as "Boost Mode" was selected rather than the default Eco Mode, then the full power output designed for 140mph running was then available above 45mph, otherwise one traction inverter is disabled and Notch 4 becomes equivalent to Notch 3.3?

 

[Railperf]

I was under the impression that so long as "Boost Mode" was selected rather than the default Eco Mode, then the full power output designed for 140mph running was then available above 45mph, otherwise one traction inverter is disabled and Notch 4 becomes equivalent to Notch 3.3?

Even in boost mode they feel slow from rest
As @dk1 and other AC loco drivers will testify, the older AC locos could be driven quite hard on a dry rail, barley slower than a 390 in boost to at least 60mph.