Avanti West Coast timetable

[berneyarms]

Most of the direct Chester and Holyhead trains are in the new base working timetable, with an extra 10:10 ex-Euston and 14:50 return ex-Holyhead.

But again this is very much subject to change closer to May.

I 100% agree with the post on the Crewe-Chester/Holyhead shuttles.

They need to be retimed if they’re keeping them as right now they are useless with atrocious connections at Crewe.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Most of the direct Chester and Holyhead trains are in the new base working timetable, with an extra 10:10 ex-Euston and 14:50 return ex-Holyhead.

But again this is very much subject to change closer to May.

I 100% agree with the post on the Crewe-Chester/Holyhead shuttles.

They need to be retimed if they’re keeping them as right now they are useless with atrocious connections at Crewe.

I can't understand why Crewe doesn't run a Swiss style interchange. 40 minute connections particularly at 9 p.m. are a real PITA.

 

[berneyarms]

The issue is that AWC are not pathing the shuttles in the existing paths between Crewe and Chester/North Wales.

That means that the connections are screwed up at Crewe.

I cannot for the life of me understand why they don’t change the shuttle timings - in most cases it needs only be by a few minutes. It’s not as if the Coast is brim full of trains!

 

[47827]

On the 25th January, I noticed AWC had reinstated the 0910 Euston-North Wales service into the timetable for this week commencing 14th February, and booked Mrs Welshman on to it, and have an e-ticket for an Advance single, so they have my account details available.
By sheer chance I happened to notice last week that its been taken out again, fortunately saving her from turning up for a non-existent train. I'm still waiting for AWC to inform me of this late cancellation, but am not holding my breath.
The service to North Wales is at its worst now than for many years - 1 through train per day, with none at weekends. AWC have responded saying they are running Crewe-Holyhead shuttles, but these are in the times of the former through services to/from Euston, and connections at Crewe are atrocious.

Following this experience, I too, am cautious about their restoring services from May. An actual train on the tracks is worth two in the supposed timetable.

Its worse than post September 1991 when there were big cuts to coincide with the introduction of HST sets. Journey times improved initially sure (until some regularly went back to loco hauled sets by 1995), but the London service halved and aside from an odd extra boat train or dated service it wasn't until autumn 2004 with the arrival of the new stock the North Wales link was restored to pre 1991 levels minus the overnight boat trains.

The issue is that AWC are not pathing the shuttles in the existing paths between Crewe and Chester/North Wales.

That means that the connections are screwed up at Crewe.

I cannot for the life of me understand why they don’t change the shuttle timings - in most cases it needs only be by a few minutes. It’s not as if the Coast is brim full of trains!

Whilst there are paths on the North Wales Coast with a degree of flexibility there are limited options for moving these trains around by much with 2 TFW services most hours of the day East of Llandudno Junction. So the fact that there are more limited non Intercity connections at Crewe for Wales these days means the through service needs to be reinstated more urgently than if this had happened 20 years ago say when there were hourly trains to Bangor or Holyhead ex Crewe on top of Virgin IC stuff.

 

[berneyarms]

We are talking for westbound shuttle services of a delay of 4-5 minutes.

That’s all that’s needed.

Eastbound is trickier unfortunately.

 

[Welshman]

We are talking for westbound shuttle services of a delay of 4-5 minutes.

That’s all that’s needed.

Eastbound is trickier unfortunately.

Exactly.
A classic example is the service I mention above. The 0910 off Euston is cancelled [it's path to Crewe taken by a Glasgow train]. However, it starts at Crewe instead at 1050 in what was its original path. There are trains from Euston at 0907 to Liverpool and 0910 to Glasgow, arriving Crewe at 1041 & 1049 respectively, neither of which "officially" connect. Retime the Holyhead by 5 minutes, and you have a comfortable connection off the 0907. With the recently-renewed signalling along the coast from Chester, I can't see how running 5 minutes later will make any difference to other services, and means it will have just under an hour at Holyhead rather than just over before returning.

I see this 1050 off Crewe some days. Its booked for a double Voyager. 10 coaches of fresh air between Crewe and Holyhead and back.
Then on opening the AWC website I see the slogan "Feel Good Travel" Somehow I don't feel very good about this.

Sorry to keep going on. But with a little thought, it could be so much better.

 

[AJP62]

No hourly direct trains between Macclesfield and Euston showing for weekdays next week - is that likely to change? Trains are running through Macclesfield so not an engineering closure. Only seems to be next week!

 

[47827]

Exactly.
A classic example is the service I mention above. The 0910 off Euston is cancelled [it's path to Crewe taken by a Glasgow train]. However, it starts at Crewe instead at 1050 in what was its original path. There are trains from Euston at 0907 to Liverpool and 0910 to Glasgow, arriving Crewe at 1041 & 1049 respectively, neither of which "officially" connect. Retime the Holyhead by 5 minutes, and you have a comfortable connection off the 0907. With the recently-renewed signalling along the coast from Chester, I can't see how running 5 minutes later will make any difference to other services, and means it will have just under an hour at Holyhead rather than just over before returning.

I see this 1050 off Crewe some days. Its booked for a double Voyager. 10 coaches of fresh air between Crewe and Holyhead and back.
Then on opening the AWC website I see the slogan "Feel Good Travel" Somehow I don't feel very good about this.

Sorry to keep going on. But with a little thought, it could be so much better.

This appears to be the connecting service for those who want the 1050 Crewe to Holyhead https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C75850/2022-02-14/detailed#allox_id=0 If they are OK holding the Holyhead up to at least 10 minutes in the event the Euston - Liverpool is late then its obviously a help, although much more than 10 minutes would be less likely at Avanti probably won't want to be penalised for delaying the 1124 ex Chester to Holyhead by too much. The Euston to Liverpool an hour earlier passes Crewe non stop at 0944 leaving the Glasgow with a dodgy 2 minute connection at Crewe so the Holyhead could do with leaving Crewe 5 minutes later, which would appear to be comfortably ahead of the Llandudno stopper still at 1027 from Chester. The 1148 Crewe to Holyhead goes several minutes minutes after a Euston to Liverpool arrives but would also need holding within reason. The evening pair of Crewe starters also connect off a Euston to Liverpool with the 1856 ex Crewe being more sensible as per today when the Liverpool was late into Crewe by over 10 minutes and still made it as a result.

 

[berneyarms]

That isn’t the official connection into the 10:50 as the minimum connection time at Crewe is 10 minutes.

It misses the minimum connection time by a minute.

To be absolutely clear - this week the official connections at Crewe are:
09:51 Crewe-Holyhead - AWC inward connection is the 07:09 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 08:47) (Would take connection off 08:10 ex-EUS if the shuttle left Crewe at 09:59, 8 mins later)
10:50 Crewe-Holyhead - AWC inward connection is the 08:10 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 09:49) (Would take connection off 09:07 ex-EUS if the shuttle left Crewe at 10:51, 1 min later)
11:48 Crewe-Holyhead - AWC inward connection is the 09:10 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 10:49) (Would take connection off 10:07 ex-EUS if the shuttle left Crewe at 11:51, 3 mins later)
17:49 Crewe-Bangor - AWC inward connection is the 15:10 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 16:47) (Would take connection off 15:59 ex-EUS if the shuttle left Crewe at 17:51, 2 mins later)
18:56 Crewe-Bangor - AWC inward connection is the 17:03 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 18:42) (This is only decent connection)

 

[Greybeard33]

09:51 Crewe-Holyhead - AWC inward connection is the 07:09 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 08:47) (Would take connection off 08:10 ex-EUS if the shuttle left Crewe at 09:59, 8 mins later)

If the 0951 were retimed 8 minutes later, it would depart Chester at 1022, only 5 minutes ahead of the TfW 1027 to Llandudno. Does the signalling support a 5 minute headway?

 

[47827]

If the 0951 were retimed 8 minutes later, it would depart Chester at 1022, only 5 minutes ahead of the TfW 1027 to Llandudno. Does the signalling support a 5 minute headway?

I think it does on paper. BUT in practice - Unless the situation has improved, on the many occasions I have been that close to another train leaving Chester its had knock on delays quite a way down. The 1027's only saving grace is its extra stops but it would only take a small bit of station delay in Chester to the Voyager (say an issue with a wheelchair boarding for instance) to hit the service behind so I imagine Avanti will hang onto the current paths and let people wait an hour, which in this day and age most folk will be put off using rail unless essential as its hardly a connection into the evening Thurso train at Inverness.

 

[43055]

If the 0951 were retimed 8 minutes later, it would depart Chester at 1022, only 5 minutes ahead of the TfW 1027 to Llandudno. Does the signalling support a 5 minute headway?

Until Llandudno Junction it is possible. At one point a ATW service split at Chester and departed about 5 mins apart. After Llandudno I think some of the sections are longer.

 

[mmh]

If the 0951 were retimed 8 minutes later, it would depart Chester at 1022, only 5 minutes ahead of the TfW 1027 to Llandudno. Does the signalling support a 5 minute headway?

It must do, I've seen multiple times an on time service from Crewe / Warrington held at Chester to allow a late running service from Wrexham to depart first, within definitely less than 5 minutes between them.

 

[berneyarms]

Whatever about the 09:51, all of the other services just require a deferral of the shuttle by 1, 2 or 3 minutes to make a meaningful connection at Crewe.

This is just lazy scheduling frankly.

 

[47827]

Whatever about the 09:51, all of the other services just require a deferral of the shuttle by 1, 2 or 3 minutes to make a meaningful connection at Crewe.

This is just lazy scheduling frankly.

Worth noting though that with the widely discussed shaving of other services out of Euston until further notice with overall frequency cut down (including the loss of most Manchester via Crewe trains) Avanti won't be in a hurry to make these Welsh shuttles busy with anyone coming from the capital if they are zapping the finite space left South of Crewe on anything remaining that does run. Good connections at Crewe of circa 10 to 20 mins would potentially squeeze more passengers onto those remaining south WCML trains, so cynically until May there will be no rush to court the Welsh customers back and Chester users are also left using the TFW services to/from Crewe or travelling via Lime Street if the Avanti shuttle times aren't useful enough. If we didn't know some of the long term plans this whole thing could be straight from the old British Rail manual off cuts by stealth, even if not intended to be (I remember how over 20 years ago Virgin used Network speed restrictions to permanently kill off its first reluctant attempt to revive the Shrewsbury-Euston service). You drive the customers off the trains by effectively making the current order undesirable and can eventually scale back the train services. Thankfully that's not "meant to be" the plan and hopefully they will make more effort after May especially when covid will hopefully be just a defunct excuse and no longer an actual decisive factor as it has been for almost 2 years now.

 

[Greybeard33]

Whatever about the 09:51, all of the other services just require a deferral of the shuttle by 1, 2 or 3 minutes to make a meaningful connection at Crewe.

This is just lazy scheduling frankly.

Maybe Avanti doesn't want to facilitate connections from LNR services? (The revenue now goes to the DfT either way, but old habits die hard.... )

 

[Geezertronic]

For my trip yesterday, I caught an early LNWR service to Rugby and changed to an Avanti service from there to Euston (as the Avanti services ex Birmingham are now timed too early or too late to get into Euston at a business-like time) - even though there is a LNWR service 3 minutes later that is fast to Euston.

For the return, TrainLine was telling me to catch a LNWR train from Euston and change at Rugby to another LNWR train ex Northampton. I discounted that and caught the Avanti Glasgow via Birmingham train and waited 1/2 hour for the LNWR connection at Birmingham International (which would have been the same LNWR train I'd have changed to at Rugby)

 

[Welshman]

On the 25th January, I noticed AWC had reinstated the 0910 Euston-North Wales service into the timetable for this week commencing 14th February, and booked Mrs Welshman on to it, and have an e-ticket for an Advance single, so they have my account details available.
By sheer chance I happened to notice last week that its been taken out again, fortunately saving her from turning up for a non-existent train. I'm still waiting for AWC to inform me of this late cancellation, but am not holding my breath.
The service to North Wales is at its worst now than for many years - 1 through train per day, with none at weekends. AWC have responded saying they are running Crewe-Holyhead shuttles, but these are in the times of the former through services to/from Euston, and connections at Crewe are atrocious.

Following this experience, I too, am cautious about their restoring services from May. An actual train on the tracks is worth two in the supposed timetable.

As a follow-up, you may be interested to learn of my wife's experiences this morning.

She had an advance ticket for the 0910 Euston to Holyhead, which was reinstated to the timetable on January 25th, and withdrawn again last week.At my suggestion she arrived at Euston in time to catch the 0907 to Liverpool, prepared for an argument with the barrier staff, but passed through unchallenged as they were querying an earlier passenger. She was welcomed by the guard at his ticket inspection, who invited her to sit anywhere on the train as it was usually empty, as indeed it was. She arrived in Crewe at 1044 and strolled through to platform 11 to board the 1050 to Holyhead, which was also empty. She enjoyed a whole carriage to herself for the final leg.
She tells me that was the best journey she has ever made, and asked can they all be like this?

Out of interest, they were announcing at Euston that North Wales services had been curtailed because of engineering works between there and Crewe - a reason which may have applied a few weekends ago, but not today. So not even the staff seem to know what AWC is up to.

 

[jfollows]

I'm booked on 1H71 16:40 Euston-Wilmslow next week, 23 February.
Fine, but I now see that it's been retimed to depart 16:35 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C34324/2022-02-23/detailed).
OK, no big problem, but what's the betting that I'll get no notification of the change, despite booking the ticket with Avanti directly? I could be proved wrong, but I don't think they'll tell me.
Now, five minutes, it's really not going to matter and now that I know about the change it certainly won't matter.
But a number of years ago - probably ten years ago - I went by train to Leipzig and DB emailed me information about changes to my train journey early in the morning before I left home, so I was prepared and was able to adjust my journey appropriately. Why, ten years later, can't Avanti (apparently, let's see in my case) do the same?

 

[James90012]

It is poor, over Christmas one of my LNER bookings had the arrival time changed by 2 minutes (later) and I was informed in good time and offered a full refund even though that was such a minor amendment. Just struck me as high quality customer service, and potentially automated.

 

[Welshman]

I'm booked on 1H71 16:40 Euston-Wilmslow next week, 23 February.
Fine, but I now see that it's been retimed to depart 16:35 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C34324/2022-02-23/detailed).
OK, no big problem, but what's the betting that I'll get no notification of the change, despite booking the ticket with Avanti directly? I could be proved wrong, but I don't think they'll tell me.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a notification from AWC. [see correspondence above re my wife's experience].

A little earlier, she had travelled to Paris on E* Both her outward and inbound journeys were altered after she had booked them, and on both occasions they sent her [in good time] renewed bookings and seat reservations, along with the option for a full refund if she preferred.

They can do it, and, according to James 90012 above, so can LNER. So what's so hard, AWC?

 

[A0]

Whatever about the 09:51, all of the other services just require a deferral of the shuttle by 1, 2 or 3 minutes to make a meaningful connection at Crewe.

This is just lazy scheduling frankly.

BIB - I'm sure @The Planner and his colleagues think similarly highly of you as well.....

 

[jfollows]

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a notification from AWC. [see correspondence above re my wife's experience].

Indeed.
I'll report back in the unexpected event of receiving a notification, but I don't think it likely. Once I've travelled I will send them a formal complaint, not that it will likely achieve anything much!

 

[berneyarms]

BIB - I'm sure @The Planner and his colleagues think similarly highly of you as well.....

Well with due respect, I think that the criticism is valid. It is aimed at AWC who are drafting these schedules in the first instance, and not NR.

I’ve every sympathy for the planners - the last two years have been dreadful to deal with. But they have had more time to get used to this now and examine the connections.

The base timetable from May has a shuttle from Crewe on Saturdays to Holyhead running in the path of the main Sail/Rail connection from London to Dublin that misses the minimum connection of a train from London by 3 minutes, which renders it pretty much pointless, as it requires a 49 minute wait at Crewe.

To miss a valid connection by one, two or three minutes at Crewe by simply retaining the original train’s path west of Crewe is not good.

If @The Planner or anyone in the know can explain it (rather than hearsay) then I’m quite prepared to hear the explanation.

 

[The Planner]

BIB - I'm sure @The Planner and his colleagues think similarly highly of you as well.....

Nowt to do with us. Avanti can re-bid if they want. Not looked at it in detail.

 

[berneyarms]

Nowt to do with us. Avanti can re-bid if they want. Not looked at it in detail.

Which is what I thought!

 

[A0]

Nowt to do with us. Avanti can re-bid if they want. Not looked at it in detail.

But presumably with no guarantee of success ? And every possibility they could get a worse outcome than they have at present ?

 

[The Planner]

But presumably with no guarantee of success ? And every possibility they could get a worse outcome than they have at present ?

Not really, depends how much work they have done themselves before hand. They could have come up with a solution, bid it and if its ok then off we go. Or they could ask if we could look at it for them, we could offer something worse but unless they agree it then it doesnt go very far.

 

[berneyarms]

But presumably with no guarantee of success ? And every possibility they could get a worse outcome than they have at present ?

Can I just ask, have you looked further along the line west of Crewe for potential conflicts before posting?

I did and to be honest I can’t see any.

Why do you think it could get worse?

 

[A0]

Can I just ask, have you looked further along the line west of Crewe for potential conflicts before posting?

I did and to be honest I can’t see any.

Why do you think it could get worse?

Not specifically - but the morning ones are probably more timed towards people heading *away* from Holyhead rather than towards it, so allowing a 10 min connection:

09:51 Crewe-Holyhead - the onwards are 10.06 to Carmarthen, 10.07 to Edinburgh and 10.22 London - none of those are terrible and give latitude if the inbound journey from Holyhead is running late.