Avanti West Coast Trainee Train Driver Euston and Wolverhampton

[Evolution]

Highest pay isn’t the be all and end all. Higher salary = higher tax and national insurance. Terms and conditions matter also. Many TOCS have sold the better t&c’s in order to achieve the higher pay. Often the higher pay is offered for a reason as they need something to keep people. Not saying that ‘Avanti’ is a bad TOC as I don’t work for them to know. But the message is there’s a lot more to a good job than a high salary headline.

I second this. What you will find is the TOC’s with the more favourable t&c’s tend to pay £55-£60k and your Avanti’s and LNER’s have sold out something to reach the higher salary. Therefore they aren’t necessarily the BEST TOCs like people seem to think.

A lot of the regional operators don’t have night shifts like you have with the above said operators. Also time in the seat can be much longer before you have a break etc. I know of drivers at regional operators who wouldn’t move to an intercity operator for these reasons.

 

[FManc]

Anybody got any idea how many years since you first passed your test Avanti will take here? 2/3/5 years seem the norm but believe some allow up to 10 years depending on how old you are. Also, if you have passed the tests and enhanced tests will you need to sit again if within said time frame?

Most recently under Virgin its been the maximum 5 years and I would imagine it'll still be the same under Avanti but there's no guarantee. The maximum limit is 5 years so whoever told you 10 depending on age is misinformed.

The tests and enhanced tests are the same thing! You don't sit any 'enhanced tests', you sit the standard psychometric tests and dependant on your performance you'll either fail, pass or get an enhanced pass. The OPC set a national benchmark that has to be met in order to 'pass'. Then TOCs can specify their own enhanced passes above this - bare in mind each TOC will have its own definition of 'enhanced'. What might be 'enhanced' at one TOC, might not be at another. The only way you'll find out if Avanti will accept your scores will be when the OPC look at them if you get chosen to attend the testing day. No-one apart from a TOCs recruitment team know what the enhanced benchmark is.

 

[Octopus28]

Anybody got any idea how many years since you first passed your test Avanti will take here? 2/3/5 years seem the norm but believe some allow up to 10 years depending on how old you are. Also, if you have passed the tests and enhanced tests will you need to sit again if within said time frame?

Most of the time it’s a 5 year time frame from when you passed to when it runs out.

 

[Ell887]

Is that true about being in the services? I’m currently serving (RAF) as an Engineering Supervisor/Manager. Safety and protocol are absolutely integral. Any deviation can result in an investigation from the aviation authorities, with discharge and potentially criminal charges being brought on any individual found guilty of engineering misconduct.

Would they not look at what you’ve done rather than that you’ve been in the forces therefore you must have a ‘can do attitude at all cost’?

Edit: Apologies if I misinterpreted your comments, it seems they might’ve just been raised regarding the way Spike has answered the questions.

 

[TTDARL]

Is that true about being in the services? I’m currently serving (RAF) as an Engineering Supervisor/Manager. Safety and protocol are absolutely integral. Any deviation can result in an investigation from the aviation authorities, with discharge and potentially criminal charges being brought on any individual found guilty of engineering misconduct.

Would they not look at what you’ve done rather than that you’ve been in the forces therefore you must have a ‘can do attitude at all cost’?

I am aware of many ex service (military / NHS / emergency service) personnel on the railways. You have been involved in safety critical work, you’ve been employed by a highly disciplined organisation with high standards, you’ve been involved in customer services / interaction, team worker, communications, policy and procedure experienced, highly accountable for your actions, some roles in the services involve non technical skills... the list goes on..... these are all beneficial for the role of train driver....

 

[iwasyoungonce]

Mate I don’t know how you answered but having been in the services unfortunately you are immediately at a disadvantage with those questions as you whole service has been about helping people and doing what you can to get a job done.

These railway questions are not looking for the person who is always going to help to get the job done!
If you think of the role of a train driver, it is a job that requires 100% concentration for every minute you are in that cab. This is very tiring and it is classed as a high stress job.
So if you think about that question regarding the shift swap which normally starts with things like “you are tired” “you have a family outing planned on your day off” then it gives you the “your the only colleague that can change shifts to allow a person to go to a funeral (or something like that)” what do you do?

The fact the question mentioned “tired” is the indicator that the answer they are looking for is NOT swapping that shift!

The correct answer is the one where you have considered 1st your own well-being and recovery and then the colleagues! As there’s usually an answer with “but you tell them you will ask about the other drivers to see if anyone can help”!

It’s not to make you sound like a control freak it’s to see that you are someone that will go away from work and do things to de stress and recover so that you come back fit and refreshed to do your next shift!

Hope this helps.

If I remember the question correctly it didnt mention "tired" I took it as a straight "do you put your work/colleagues before your family/social life" ?

 

[Joliver]

Is that true about being in the services? I’m currently serving (RAF) as an Engineering Supervisor/Manager. Safety and protocol are absolutely integral. Any deviation can result in an investigation from the aviation authorities, with discharge and potentially criminal charges being brought on any individual found guilty of engineering misconduct.

Would they not look at what you’ve done rather than that you’ve been in the forces therefore you must have a ‘can do attitude at all cost’?

Edit: Apologies if I misinterpreted your comments, it seems they might’ve just been raised regarding the way Spike has answered the questions.

Not at all mate. I was in the emergency services before I became a driver. The job is full of ex M.O.D and emergency service personal. With that background you hit all the criteria that they are looking for.

 

[Ell887]

I am aware of many ex service (military / NHS / emergency service) personnel on the railways. You have been involved in safety critical work, you’ve been employed by a highly disciplined organisation with high standards, you’ve been involved in customer services / interaction, team worker, communications, policy and procedure experienced, highly accountable for your actions, some roles in the services involve non technical skills... the list goes on..... these are all beneficial for the role of train driver....

Not at all mate. I was in the emergency services before I became a driver. The job is full of ex M.O.D and emergency service personal. With that background you hit all the criteria that they are looking for.

Thanks for that. I was concerned I was going start fighting a losing battle then (still could well be the case, mind you).

I’m a long way off, in plenty of ways at the minute to be able to even consider a career on the railway. I’ve joined this forum to try and amass as much knowledge, as early as possible. Reading the questions etc that an interview might pose and thinking of the situations I’ve been in that might fill the criteria.

I must say, there are some great people offering a wealth of knowledge to prospective drivers etc. Much appreciated.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Most recently under Virgin its been the maximum 5 years and I would imagine it'll still be the same under Avanti but there's no guarantee. The maximum limit is 5 years so whoever told you 10 depending on age is misinformed.

The tests and enhanced tests are the same thing! You don't sit any 'enhanced tests', you sit the standard psychometric tests and dependant on your performance you'll either fail, pass or get an enhanced pass. The OPC set a national benchmark that has to be met in order to 'pass'. Then TOCs can specify their own enhanced passes above this - bare in mind each TOC will have its own definition of 'enhanced'. What might be 'enhanced' at one TOC, might not be at another. The only way you'll find out if Avanti will accept your scores will be when the OPC look at them if you get chosen to attend the testing day. No-one apart from a TOCs recruitment team know what the enhanced benchmark is.

I meant the additional technical stuff some TOCs ask for - fault finding. I thought that was enhanced.

 

[TTDARL]

Thanks for that. I was concerned I was going start fighting a losing battle then (still could well be the case, mind you).

I’m a long way off, in plenty of ways at the minute to be able to even consider a career on the railway. I’ve joined this forum to try and amass as much knowledge, as early as possible. Reading the questions etc that an interview might pose and thinking of the situations I’ve been in that might fill the criteria.

I must say, there are some great people offering a wealth of knowledge to prospective drivers etc. Much appreciated.

There’s a whole host of reasons why people are unsuccessful. Unfortunately due to the numbers involved in railways recruitment (particularly drivers) feedback isn’t forthcoming or transparent. So yeh good to be on here getting others experiences and advice. Many railways workers don’t get into the railways first time (despite some falsely saying they did.) TOCS can pick and choose and pick the top performers in the recruitment process despite those not being at / near the top still being credible candidates.Just how it goes sometimes. We all get knock backs in all walks of life. Just learn from it and bounce back.

 

[FManc]

I meant the additional technical stuff some TOCs ask for - fault finding. I thought that was enhanced.

I think they’re just extra tests but not necessarily enhanced. Virgin/Avanti don’t use them as far as I’m aware.

The only extra tests they have used in the past are two online tests that are normally sent out by the OPC once the initial screening is completed (I imagine to bring numbers down again before inviting candidates for the proper psychometric testing).

 

[Nevergiveup]

I’m gutted I missed out on this one, I left the forums for a while thinking there won’t be any recruitments due to Covid19, would there be any more vacancies for Avanti this year?

 

[TTDARL]

Register for job alerts on the individual TOCS that are accessible to you

 

[StevieH]

Highest pay isn’t the be all and end all. Higher salary = higher tax and national insurance. Terms and conditions matter also. Many TOCS have sold the better t&c’s in order to achieve the higher pay. Often the higher pay is offered for a reason as they need something to keep people. Not saying that ‘Avanti’ is a bad TOC as I don’t work for them to know. But the message is there’s a lot more to a good job than a high salary headline.

All TOCs pay above the tax threshold so unless you are going to earn over 150K at Avanti you won't pay any higher tax rate than any where else.

 

[TTDARL]

All TOCs pay above the tax threshold so unless you are going to earn over 150K at Avanti you won't pay any higher tax rate than any where else.

40% tax of £70000 is going to be higher than 40% tax of £55000 in terms of tax deduction in take home money is my point. 40% tax deduction is the same however the higher amount will have more tax paid in monetary terms.

 

[NI 271]

40% tax of £70000 is going to be higher than 40% tax of £55000 in terms of tax deduction in take home money is my point. 40% tax deduction is the same however the higher amount will have more tax paid in monetary terms.

You don't pay 40% tax on £70k (nor, granted, on £55k), you pay 40% on anything above the threshold (currently £50kpa) and 20% on everything below it, but do of course by dint of that keep 60% of it (slightly less when you consider the additional NI contribution). Someone on £70k is going to pay more tax, obviously, but they're also going to come out with around £700 or so more *after deductions* every four weeks compared to someone on £55k. You couldn't use an extra £175 a week? Really? The thought it was subject to PAYE and NI (and would consequently help fund public services) would put you off it? Pffft.

The only thing that would trump a higher salary is better conditions, to suggest otherwise is remarkably bizarre.

 

[Class2ldn]

Which a lot of other companies have which is why they are on a lower salary.
People see virgin/avanti etc as this privileged company to work for but they are just another toc.
I wouldn't dream of going there unless I had to due to relocation etc as my current toc has much better terms and conditions and rostering.
They may have intercity work and higher pay but they are paying for it with the roster and other terms and conditions.
All swings and roundabouts.

 

[TTDARL]

You don't pay 40% tax on £70k (nor, granted, on £55k), you pay 40% on anything above the threshold (currently £50kpa) and 20% on everything below it, but do of course by dint of that keep 60% of it (slightly less when you consider the additional NI contribution). Someone on £70k is going to pay more tax, obviously, but they're also going to come out with around £700 or so more *after deductions* every four weeks compared to someone on £55k. You couldn't use an extra £175 a week? Really? The thought it was subject to PAYE and NI (and would consequently help fund public services) would put you off it? Pffft.

The only thing that would trump a higher salary is better conditions, to suggest otherwise is remarkably bizarre.

Nowhere has anyone mentioned ‘about being put off anywhere’ as you mentioned in your post. Just highlighting that one shouldn’t be blinded by a high salary figure but to also look at other things such as t&c’s, reasons why the salary is so high.
You mention that you DON’T pay 40% tax on 70k or 55k then you go on to mention that you DO pay 40% tax on anything above 50k! You have contradicted yourself. As I’ve already mentioned I was talking about monetary terms, not the tax percentage. So as per my original point that it’s also about t&c’s, not just the headline salary.

 

[Octopus28]

I’m gutted I missed out on this one, I left the forums for a while thinking there won’t be any recruitments due to Covid19, would there be any more vacancies for Avanti this year?

Don’t be disheartened. I think everyone was shocked when the job vacancies came up, especially with the way everything is at the minute. Remember your username!

 

[StevieH]

Nowhere has anyone mentioned ‘about being put off anywhere’ as you mentioned in your post. Just highlighting that one shouldn’t be blinded by a high salary figure but to also look at other things such as t&c’s, reasons why the salary is so high.
You mention that you DON’T pay 40% tax on 70k or 55k then you go on to mention that you DO pay 40% tax on anything above 50k! You have contradicted yourself. As I’ve already mentioned I was talking about monetary terms, not the tax percentage. So as per my original point that it’s also about t&c’s, not just the headline salary.

What are these magical T&C's that other TOCs have that Avanti don't? Always hear this old wives tale nonsense that they sold them all but never get any concrete examples and knowing many Avanti drivers to they are always bewildered by this as well.

 

[NI 271]

You mention that you DON’T pay 40% tax on 70k or 55k then you go on to mention that you DO pay 40% tax on anything above 50k! You have contradicted yourself

I quoted a post which said this;

40% tax of £70000 is going to be higher than 40% tax of £55000 in terms of tax deduction in take home money is my point

which is like telling people it'll be more expensive to buy a car than a biro.

However, your inability to understand what I've pointed out in reply (and apparently how income tax is paid) does not render it any less true. Higher rates of tax (PAYE) are only paid on money earned above the threshold, ie it is not £70k or £55k, in these theoretical cases it's £20k or £5k which are the amounts on which you'd pay 40% tax (I literally pointed this out in my reply, here's hoping reading it a second time will make the penny drop), in the same way the first £12,500 you earn is subject to zero tax. It appears, from your input here, that you think someone earning £70kpa loses 40% - ie £28,000 - of that £70k to income tax alone. They don't. I've pointed out roughly how much more it's worth to earn £70k in comparison to £55k, something you completely disregard because you mistakenly think the whole £70,000 is subject to 40% PAYE and someone earning that is therefore getting walloped to the tune of over £500 a week by it....

It's a shame that while you were scraping the gov.uk site for the graphic you pointlessly shared (anyone employed should know what they pay in PAYE, after all) you didn't read up on what the thresholds mentioned actually refer to, or how they work. I'm also unsure why you mention terms and conditions in your reply to me, I mentioned them myself in reply to a post which did not.

 

[StevieH]

I quoted a post which said this;



which is like telling people it'll be more expensive to buy a car than a biro.

However, your inability to understand what I've pointed out in reply (and apparently how income tax is paid) does not render it any less true. Higher rates of tax (PAYE) are only paid on money earned above the threshold, ie it is not £70k or £55k, in these theoretical cases it's £20k or £5k which are the amounts on which you'd pay 40% tax (I literally pointed this out in my reply, here's hoping reading it a second time will make the penny drop), in the same way the same way the first £12,500 you earn is subject to zero tax. It appears, from your input here, that you think someone earning £70kpa loses 40% - ie £28,000 - of that £70k to income tax alone. They don't. I've pointed out roughly how much more it's worth to earn £70k in comparison to £55k, something you completely disregard because you mistakenly think the whole £70,000 is subject to 40% PAYE and someone earning that is therefore getting walloped to the tune of over £500 a week by it....

It's a shame that while you were scraping the gov.uk site for the graphic you pointlessly shared (anyone employed should know what they pay in PAYE, after all) you didn't read up on what the thresholds mentioned actually refer to, or how they work. I'm also unsure why you mention terms and conditions in your reply to me, I mentioned them myself in reply to a post which did not.

Yes there's a lot of dislike for intercity TOCs from a small group of other drivers who just spew out old wives tales about why Intercity jobs are bad and 120 stops a day on 15k less is better. I think it's because they know they'd never get the job in the first place or are just to scared to apply.

 

[HLE]

A lot of people don't understand how PAYE works. Some of the questions I used to get asked when I did payroll years ago were comical.

'A bloke down the pub told me....' was usually how it started or something similar.
Yep your dead right pal, my years of training and experience in accounting, tax and payroll are nothing compared to your mate who's a plumber.

 

[Octopus28]

Think we need some positivity back in this group! Let’s get back to the original reason for this thread haha! Good luck to everyone who has applied and hopefully we will hear very soon

 

[HLE]

Yes there's a lot of dislike for intercity TOCs from a small group of other drivers who just spew out old wives tales about why Intercity jobs are bad and 120 stops a day on 15k less is better. I think it's because they know they'd never get the job in the first place or are just to scared to apply.

Depends really, everyone's different. 3-4 hours in the seat, PNB and back again are liked by a lot and I can see why.

Others prefer 6 trips to the same place, quick brew and 10 minute break each hour at the turnaround, getting to know and have a chat with the same staff and passengers when your on that route etc. Oh and if the mainline goes up the swanny your out the way and can usually stick to time.

 

[NI 271]

Yes there's a lot of dislike for intercity TOCs from a small group of other drivers who just spew out old wives tales about why Intercity jobs are bad and 120 stops a day on 15k less is better. I think it's because they know they'd never get the job in the first place or are just to scared to apply.

I worry for people who think someone earning (theoretical figures, but pertinent nonetheless)£50,000 a year would pay 20% tax on it and take home £40k yet someone on £50,001 would pay 40% tax on that and take home £30k. This chap isn't the first person I've seen suggest they think that, how does that happen? Why would anyone take on any job paying betweek £50,001 and £67,000 if that was the case?

I don't think it's a TOC dislike thing, but I do agree it smacks of trying to convince themselves they wouldn't actually be missing out if they failed to obtain a job they feel unlikely to ever get.

 

[NI 271]

A lot of people don't understand how PAYE works. Some of the questions I used to get asked when I did payroll years ago were comical.

'A bloke down the pub told me....' was usually how it started or something similar.
Yep your dead right pal, my years of training and experience in accounting, tax and payroll are nothing compared to your mate who's a plumber.

Haha! I can well believe that, it seems there's nobody who knows more about ANY job than someone who has never done it. There's no better example than the number of posts on here telling drivers, guards and signallers what they're doing wrong...

 

[Class2ldn]

In terms of high speed the only company that would interest me would be east mids, similar roster and agreements to my current toc and undoubtedly better work but too far for me to travel.
People going on about other drivers not getting jobs with certain tocs is complete rubbish.
You've got as much chance of not getting a job with so called poor tocs as you would with an intercity company.
Your trying to suggest that people at some tocs are there because they aren't good enough to drive an intercity train lol.
Do me a favour, a driver is a driver, whatever they drive and who ever they drive for.
Most people wouldn't get jobs at other places because of poor attendance or safety of the line incidents, not because they are of lower calibre then anyone else as some of you are trying to portray.
Some people see it as the pinnacle of driving and moving up but its just another company with differing work.
Suits some, not others.

 

[Jaytrains]

I don’t really care how much tax will be taken from my salary or the amount of hours I’ll be driving...

Its all about getting the train licence first and then think about what’s good for myself and what isn’t...

 

[Geeza3131]

Just got invite to next stage vse and m7sjt, any ideas about these?