BAD customer experience on East Midland Train

[soil]

Well how the hell can I be racist when I have chosen to spend the rest of my life with an asian lady?

I believe the so-called BNP ballerina, Simone Clarke, had a relationship and a child with Yat-Sen Chang, a Cuban-Chinese man, prior to getting involved with the BNP.

Also there were for instance anti-Chinese riots in Indonesia in 1998, and my experience in that country is that there is much racism towards Chinese people. This does not mean that they are racist towards everyone, generally they are very friendly towards white people in my experience, yet I have seen British Chinese people in Indonesia being subjected to obvious and overt racism on the basis of their skin colour.

I'm sure there are many instances of quite overt racists having a spouse of a different race. It proves nothing at all about more general accusations of racism, that you have a spouse of a specific different race.

I still agree that it was inappropriate to mention race when there are plenty of TOC staff who have no problem being rude regardless of race!

 

[tokluo]

I agree, both from a staff safety point of view and a customer safety point of view. In your case, it wouldn't cover what was said as there'd be no microphone, so I'd urge caution with your remark about the resolution of customer complaints - and from both points of view too.

You as a new poster to this site won't know this, but I'm a Guard for a different company, and I can only call things as I see it, and how I'd like to have handled it. I'd have asked for your ticket, explained that we like to keep trains on time because others in this carriage may have connections to make and that you can also ask the trolley to move to the vestibule so you can get to your seats if need be. I'd have been firm but not condescending (as it sounds like you were spoken to). I mean, sure - the trolley operator (ahem!) may have asked you to wait for them - so be it! No need to panic and dive off the train, and then have to get back on it again at the Guard's local door to avoid missing the train altogether! I'm sure you can probably appreciate now in the cold light of day that you nearly missed the train - the guard could easily have shut the door and left you standing in Manchester! That'd be a real 'Homer Simpson DOH moment'. Travelling is stressful - I get that. Don't make it any more stressful than it needs to be by pressing the panic button when you don't need to

Thank you Ferret for this comment. I have got a feeling that you might work for a train company reading your comments.

I would be fully compliant, grateful and many apologies to the Guard at the time if we were treated how you would of reacted. I can also full sympathies with any customer facing role that it can be stressful and I understand that there will be difficult customers at times.

I am not a regular train user and traveled back via train on this occasion from a holiday due to bad weather to drive. I am not prefect and mistakes, it is the threats and the way I was spoke to that make me posted my experience here.

Kindly

 

[GB]

Do we really need to get into this?! With all due respect, in ancient times, people were burned because they were suspected of maybe being witches! Is talk of some people maybe not liking specific races helpful?!

General open question, probably for a 'meaning of life' type of thread but - will we ever get to a point where the colour of somebody's skin doesn't matter?!

Get into what exactly? I was merely pointing out the (pretty big) flaw in the 'I can't be a racist, some of my best friends are x' argument. I wasn't suggesting anyone here or on the train is/was a racist.

 

[Ferret]

Thank you Ferret for this comment. I have got a feeling that you might work for a train company reading your comments.

I would be fully compliant, grateful and many apologies to the Guard at the time if we were treated how you would of reacted. I can also full sympathies with any customer facing role can also be stressful and I understand that there will be at time difficult customers.

I am not a regular train user and traveled back via train on this occasion from a holiday due to bad weather to drive. I am not prefect and mistakes, it is the threats and the way I was spoke to that make me posted my experience here.

Kindly

I understand. And yes, customer facing roles are bloody frustrating sometimes - we can't win all of the time. It sounds like somebody crossed the line here, and momentarily lost the plot. They might be sat at home regretting the way they spoke to you now, but it's a bit late to put it right! I guess you may well have been in that situation once or twice too?

Kudos for taking the train instead of driving in the bad weather though; I just hope one bad experience doesn't put you off forever!


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Get into what exactly? I was merely pointing out the (pretty big) flaw in the 'I can't be a racist, some of my best friends are x' argument. I wasn't suggesting anyone here or on the train is/was a racist.

I get that, it's just that I dislike any situation where people have to demonstrate that they are not a racist in the first place. It's akin to a culture of suspicion, which is where we were hundreds of years ago!!!

 

[Skimble19]

Why is this level of customer service still exists in an organization of this size? Is it because the color of our skin is different? Do East Midland Train don't pay any attention to the racist card any more? Who do I need to get through to in order to have someone investigate the work ethic of this officer? Who do I need to talk to in order for someone to put this officer in disciplinary to avoid this ever happens to any other passengers? How do I get a personally apologies from this officer for her actions?

Sorry, but as soon as you tried to play the race card my sympathy for you vanished, and to be honest I'm now fairly skeptical about the rest of the post. The vast majority of people DO NOT pay attention to skin colour these days, and I highly suspect the type of person who would pay attention to it wouldn't be in such a job for very long.

Attempting to get a personal apology from the "officer" is unlikely to get you overly far either. I suspect the guard was simply already fairly frustrated at their train being late, and was perhaps slightly more "sharp tongued" than they otherwise would've been.. Admittedly, that doesn't excuse them, but you can't go around thinking every time somebody with a different skin colour to you isn't polite it's because of that.

Regarding cameras / CCTV on trains: many do now have this, although it can't cover 100% of the train.

 

[sidmouth]

Totally agree with Skimble19. Those that play the racist card have immediately lost the argument. End of story.

 

[RJ]

There is no point in claiming racism is an element in any situation where one is subjected to unfavourable treatment unless it can be proven. It certainly shouldn't be used as an add on to a story in order to elicit sympathy.

 

[swj99]

you played the Ali G card

What’s a comedian with yellow sunglasses got to do with it ?

Absolutely terrible customer service.

Although in this case, it sounds more like abuse than service.

Maybe she wasn't sure if we were getting on the train or not but still no need to be aggressive and rude.

Whatever she thought, there is very rarely an excuse to be speak aggressively to people.

I don’t see the point in quoting all the posts from people who criticised the playing of the so called race card, but only the guard involved can possibly know for definite whether or not there was an element of racial prejudice involved.

Thank you Ferret for this comment. I have got a feeling that you might work for a train company reading your comments

A new kind of 'ism'. It's train companyism but it's alright, some of my best friends are train companies, and I claim my £5


When I said there was no point in quoting all the posts from people who criticised the playing of the so called race card, there is one exception.

Totally agree with Skimble19. Those that play the racist card have immediately lost the argument. End of story.

A passenger who has been the subject of abuse is entitled to complain, regardless of whether there was a racial motivation or not.

 

[YorkshireBear]

All well and good avoiding East Midlands trains but i would like to point out every company (not train company just company) has rude members of staff that should not make you never use them again.

Plus in this case, if you want to get around the East Midlands by rail at anytime you are going to struggle without using EMT....

 

[Monty]

What’s a comedian with yellow sunglasses got to do with it ?

I think this is because Ali G's trademark catchphrase is "is it cos I'm black?", which is virtually how the OP worded it in his initial post.

I suppose it's easy to make assumptions on what happened, the OP has made it more so by stating the guard's 'tirade' in capital letters. Did she honestly let rip with an outburst that Brian Blessed would be proud of or did she simply just raise her voice and appear annoyed or agitated? Sounds like the guard was under a bit of pressure and not having a particularly good day, there is no mention of any foul language or vulgar statements being made towards the OP or their partner.

That said there is no excuse for such behaviour and I as others have said already I would urge the OP write to EMT to air their grievances and concerns. I would strongly advise the OP to seriously consider the consequences before making any allegations of racial abuse though, if the original post is an accurate portrayal of the incident there is no evidence that any racism took place (though there is an obvious lack of tact, patience, understanding and p*ss poor customer service) and could mean all the difference from the guard getting a verbal/written bollocking (which seems entirely justified) and being dismissed for racial abuse. But this is all speculation, only the OP and guard really know what happened on the day in questions.

 

[Harbon 1]

In fairness, most complaints I've seen are an exaggeration of the truth, and I (personally) don't think that you were shouted at, talked sternly to, but not shouted.

Again, you should probably have just waited to get passed the trolley. I did have to do what you did when my family moved from one end of the train to another. Grabbing 2 bags and legging in between coaches at Darlington. I left the other bag until Newcastle :P

And as for avoiding EMT; the kindest TOC I know with some of the kindest guards. And you'll have to pay a fair bit more to get to Nottingham from Manchester without using them. If it was British rail still, would you avoid using the train all togeather?

 

[Dieseldriver]

Why is this level of customer service still exists in an organization of this size? Is it because the color of our skin is different? Do East Midland Train don't pay any attention to the racist card any more? Who do I need to get through to in order to have someone investigate the work ethic of this officer? Who do I need to talk to in order for someone to put this officer in disciplinary to avoid this ever happens to any other passengers? How do I get a personally apologies from this officer for her actions?

It's a guard, not a ticket officer, their primary role is the safe working of the train. Is your complaint with the guard because their skin colour is different to your own?

 

[8J]

I had a similar incident with a VT TM a few weeks back. She had a rant saying "why are you up and down like a blue arsed fly?" (I had only been up once before to buy a beer from the shop) she threatened to kick me off in the snow for going to the toilet and getting in her way waiting for the 1st class trolley to pass. I went to the toilet, then she was waiting in the seated area for me to pass, to which she stared at me and shouted "problem?!" To which I said "yeah!". Then she came out into the vestibule and i said "as a railway employee, i would never speak to anyone like you have" (she was causing other problems for other passengers too) She then asked which company i worked for and i said "I dont need tell you", even though i still was wearing part of my uniform. And she said, "you tell me or I will kick you off". I calmed her down as she was getting quite irate, then i asked her for her headcode to report it, to which she called me strange!!! Now that's out of order, without playing any "race card"

Problem is some rail staff just aren't nice people, as in any job

 

[bnm]

And you'll have to pay a fair bit more to get to Nottingham from Manchester without using them.

Won't necessarily have to pay more. Although journey time would be increased by avoiding EMT.

Manchester - Sheffield, Transpennine or Northern
Sheffield - Derby, CrossCountry
Derby - Nottingham, CrossCountry

 

[blacknight]

Last night (5th Feb 2013) me and my partner travailed from Manchester train station to Sheffield station on East Midland Train via Manchester Piccadilly to Nottingham route.

The train was supposed to depart at 8:43pm but was delayed 18 minutes. As soon as the train arrived we got on the train IMMEDIATELY using the first carriage. After we step on the train we realized there was a food and drink trolley approaching (within couple of meters from us) and it was not possible for us to get trough to any available seating with the 2 luggage we had with us.

We decided to get off the train and use the next carriage to avoid the trolly which was blocking the path. As we got to the next cargo we realized the doors was ready locked and we had to RAN back to the first carriage (which a ticket office was still standing and the doors still open ).

The ticket officer ( a woman officer with no name badge ) immediately got very hostile with us and scolded “DO YOU WANT TO GET ON THE BLOODY TRAIN OR NOT!!).

I replied calmly and explained “We can not get through earlier because there was a trolly blocking our way, we had to ..” before I can finished.

The ticket officer (aggressively): “YOUR DELAYING MY TRAIN! SIT DOWN!”My partner was ready shaken and shocked at this point and I completely felt degraded and replied back “Don't speak to me this way. this is not the way for any customer service”

The ticket office got even more hostile and threatened to removed me from the train “DO YOU WANT TO GET OFF THIS TRAIN” - (can they even force me off the train because I ask not to speak to me this way?)


Anyways I replied “NO”

Ticket office again scolded “THEN GO SIT DOWN!”

After train started and the same officer came inspect my tickets. After she was satisfied our tickets was valid, she handed back my tickets and again scolded “Next time don't delay my train!!”

This have left us hopeless humiliated, degraded and my partner shaken. Still not fully understand why we was blamed for the train being delayed. The whole ordeal from initially getting on the train and to our finial seating was not longer then 1 minute.

Why is this level of customer service still exists in an organization of this size? Is it because the color of our skin is different? Do East Midland Train don't pay any attention to the racist card any more? Who do I need to get through to in order to have someone investigate the work ethic of this officer? Who do I need to talk to in order for someone to put this officer in disciplinary to avoid this ever happens to any other passengers? How do I get a personally apologies from this officer for her actions?


Please help

Technically you were delaying the train as guard was in process of carrying out dispatch procedure & would have been further delayed if she had joined in polite conversation about rights & wrongs of incident.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I had a similar incident with a VT TM a few weeks back. She had a rant saying "why are you up and down like a blue arsed fly?" (I had only been up once before to buy a beer from the shop) she threatened to kick me off in the snow for going to the toilet and getting in her way waiting for the 1st class trolley to pass. I went to the toilet, then she was waiting in the seated area for me to pass, to which she stared at me and shouted "problem?!" To which I said "yeah!". Then she came out into the vestibule and i said "as a railway employee, i would never speak to anyone like you have" (she was causing other problems for other passengers too) She then asked which company i worked for and i said "I dont need tell you", even though i still was wearing part of my uniform. And she said, "you tell me or I will kick you off". I calmed her down as she was getting quite irate, then i asked her for her headcode to report it, to which she called me strange!!! Now that's out of order, without playing any "race card"

Problem is some rail staff just aren't nice people, as in any job

Beer & uniform together are not best mix to launch a complaint.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Wow this has really been blown out of all proportion!

It went from

Rude Guard, passenger assumed (more probably wrongly then right that it was racial)
and venting their anger and frustration to...

A major incident!

I for one don't believe for a second it was racist, however the Guards customer services skills were obviously non existent and she crossed the line with her attitude. As people in customer facing roles we all feel that anger well up inside sometimes, can be a stupid question, it can be someone not getting the answer they want or it could just be that we are having a bad day. That is no excuse. I lost my temper once when I first started on the railway many moons ago and I could easily have lost my job or be disciplined because of it (lots of provocation etc but thats for another day)> I learned from that mistake and now if I feel like I am going to say something I will regret I will just look at m y payslip, that tends to correct any thoughts lol.

 

[8J]

Beer & uniform together are not best mix to launch a complaint.

Well I didn't have any of the company's logo on display. For some reason, I forgot to take my tie off. I didn't even get round to opening my beer before I went to the toilet (I find it a bit strange taking drinks into a toilet). I went to the large toilet in coach J, but that was occupied, and she was starting fights with passengers by there too about First Class Upgrades as Lime St wrongly told passengers that the train was declassified. Still, her reaction to them was out of order and other passengers then joined on the bandwagon against this French couple. Taking this in mind and the fact that the bog was STILL occupied, I walked to the toilet in coach H, that too was occupied. So on to coach G, and then it all started. VT customer relations are aware of what happened and are investigating, but for me, that was totally out of order

 

[swj99]

Just looking at this incident and reports of others where there have been similar allegations, and I think it indicates a problem that's inherent in society nowadays, and it's that a lot of people don't know how to be assertive. They know how to be aggressive and hysterical, because aggression and hysteria are modelled in so many places these days. Some people are taught by example from an early age how to use it to get what they want, and some don't seem to know any other ways to be. But how many people can interact with others without eventually letting emotions get the better of them ? I've seen many a decent person put themselves in the wrong and lose credibility or the argument, or even got themselves into real trouble, because they lost their temper.

 

[RJ]

Just looking at this incident and reports of others where there have been similar allegations, and I think it indicates a problem that's inherent in society nowadays, and it's that a lot of people don't know how to be assertive. They know how to be aggressive and hysterical, because aggression and hysteria are modelled in so many places these days. Some people are taught by example from an early age how to use it to get what they want, and some don't seem to know any other ways to be. But how many people can interact with others without eventually letting emotions get the better of them ? I've seen many a decent person put themselves in the wrong and lose credibility or the argument, or even got themselves into real trouble, because they lost their temper.

By the same token, some people need to be spoken to in a language they will understand. I'm always polite to these East Midlands Trains staff, particularly these ticket inspectors I've had conflicts with and it often got me nothing other than a heavy debt levied on me - maybe sometimes the police called on me as the staff see it as a weak attempt at bluffing. As soon as I decide to be rather more "assertive," it results in even the hardest, most complained about RPIs backing off of me.

 

[swj99]

By the same token, some people need to be spoken to in a language they will understand.

I know what you mean. For me, it's a calm, rational, polite conversation or none at all. It doesn't matter who it is, with the possible exception of some lunatic down a back alley, but then I suppose there wouldn't be much conversation going on anyway.

I remember having a conversation in an office with a bank official a few years ago. I'd asked the bank a question about their policy regarding chargebacks, as far as they relate to paypal. They couldn't, or wouldn't, give me a straight answer, and kept saying they couldn't give me legal advice. I repeated that I was not asking for legal advice, I just wanted to know what the bank's policy was. This conversation went round in circles for about 10 minutes, until I asked if they could give me the contact details for their head office so I could ask them. The official went away for about 5 minutes, then came back and said, "Ive spoken to our legal department, and they said they're not prepared to give you legal advice !"
I said that was fine, I wasn't asking for any, I was just asking for an answer to my question regarding their policy. The guy had just wasted 5 minutes on pointless phone call. In the end, I could see that he was hating being there, and wasn't used to someone being persistent but not aggressive or violent. If I had been, he could have called the police or security. Eventually, he suggested I have a look on their website and see if I could find the information I wanted on there. I said yes, fine, I'd have a look and if I still couldn't find it, I'd arrange to call in and see him again. At this, he said, "No, don't do that, I wont be able to help you !"
I guess a lot of people would have throttled him for being so evasive, but what would have been the point ? That wouldn't have got me the info I needed anyway. I just thought it was funny that he spent so long avoiding answering my question, rather than just being honest. I asked another bank the same question later the same week, which they happily answered straight away.

 

[cally]

I had an incident in April 2012 where i was sworn at and threatened by the train manager saying he would rip me from the train if i did not get off. The incident which upset him was that i boarded with my bmx bike and i took it onto the disabled door which has a pic of a bike on it, and i had already taken my bike onto two other trains (run my cross country and arriva trains wales) that day. The guy wore no name badge and wouldnt tell me his name so in my letter i described him and included what train it was, what station it was, and where the train was going to and from. I wrote a letter of complaint to EMT demanding an apology within 28 days, and they got back to me exactly 28 days later telling me that they cant do anything without his full name, and if I had included this info, what action they would carry out would have to be kept confidential. I now assume they did nothing, and this guy is still needlessly threatening customers, therefore i dont hold out much hope for you with your complaint.

 

[RJ]

I had an incident in April 2012 where i was sworn at and threatened by the train manager saying he would rip me from the train if i did not get off. The incident which upset him was that i boarded with my bmx bike and i took it onto the disabled door which has a pic of a bike on it, and i had already taken my bike onto two other trains (run my cross country and arriva trains wales) that day. The guy wore no name badge and wouldnt tell me his name so in my letter i described him and included what train it was, what station it was, and where the train was going to and from. I wrote a letter of complaint to EMT demanding an apology within 28 days, and they got back to me exactly 28 days later telling me that they cant do anything without his full name, and if I had included this info, what action they would carry out would have to be kept confidential. I now assume they did nothing, and this guy is still needlessly threatening customers, therefore i dont hold out much hope for you with your complaint.

They aren't likely to take your complaint seriously unless;

a.) You can prove it happened
b.) You force them to take you seriously

If ever you are done a disservice, make sure you get hold of the CCTV and let the camera speak for itself.

That said, did you have a bike reservation, or did you seek permission to board with the bike from the Train Manager? There is probably a bike symbol on Coach A of the trains as there is space beside the cab to stow them, but I'm fairly sure you can't just board with a bike without letting the railways know first.

 

[yorkie]

cally - As you are dissatisfied with the response, I suggest you contact Passenger Focus. The name should not be required as they will know which Train Manager it was from their records, based on the date and the service in question.

The only other thing I can suggest is that some TOCs have to respond within a certain timeframe as part of their franchise agreement, for example East Coast have to respond within 10 days and received a franchise breach notice for failing to do so on several occasions, however someone else had a look and couldn't find such a clause for EMT.

As RJ says, if you didn't have a reservation (you don't make this clear) then the staff can decline to take your bike, though this should obviously be done politely.

I think the original discussion has run its course, so unless anyone has anything significant to add I think it's best locked.