Bailiffs after unpaid ticked

[swt_passenger]

I never had the opportunity to pay the 20£ penalty fare. After I left the train station that night nothing happened for 7 months and then I get an envelope saying that I owe 400£

So you need to give us some hints as to where all the correspondence must have gone. We have to assume from your first post that they wrote to the address on your driving licence, so did you actually live there at any time during the 7 months?

 

[Puffing Devil]

I never had the opportunity to pay the 20£ penalty fare. After I left the train station that night nothing happened for 7 months and then I get an envelope saying that I owe 400£

I did post this earlier:

Extremely important - did you find out about this fine more or less than 21 days ago?

If it's within 21 days you need to visit a solicitor immediately and make a Statutory Declaration to have the conviction (and the debt) set aside.

More than 21 days and you can still make an application to the court to have the matter set aside, though I would recommend face to face legal advice and not an internet forum.

When I say set aside, I mean having the matter reset in the court to the summons stage. This will prevent the bailiffs collecting on the debt. See a solicitor and they will be able to advise properly. Any local criminal law solicitor will be able to help, but time is of the essence.

My advice is to get on to a local solicitor tomorrow to stop the process. It appears that you have been convicted in your absence in court and have been unaware of the hearing. The summons and all the paperwork have gone to the address you provided when stopped. You may have moved, all the post may have been lost, there may have been a mistake in the address recorded. This matters not - go and get some help tomorrow to sort out a Statutory Declaration to reset the matter to a pre-conviction state.

You will still need to go to court, you will get a fine, you should get your money back from the bailiffs.

 

[Haywain]

I never had the opportunity to pay the 20£ penalty fare. After I left the train station that night nothing happened for 7 months and then I get an envelope saying that I owe 400£

At the time that you were told that you would have to pay £20 were you issued with any sort of paperwork?

 

[Haywain]

So you need to give us some hints as to where all the correspondence must have gone. We have to assume from your first post that they wrote to the address on your driving licence, so did you actually live there at any time during the 7 months?

And then suddenly receives notification of a fine. Which is, curiously, lower than the default amount for a no-show at court (if I remember the figures correctly). Something is failing to add up here.

 

[Llanigraham]

Surely, if the Bailiffs have been paid then the fine has been paid, so it is too late now to apply for Statutory Declaration?
The matter is considered closed by the payment of the fine.

 

[najaB]

I never had the opportunity to pay the 20£ penalty fare.

There is no automatic right to receive a Penalty Fare. A TOC can procede directly with a prosecution if they feel the circumstances warrant it.

 

[xdrdaniel]

So you need to give us some hints as to where all the correspondence must have gone. We have to assume from your first post that they wrote to the address on your driving licence, so did you actually live there at any time during the 7 months?

Back then I had a provisional driving licence and the address on it was the previous one. I was already living somewhere else at the time. So I assume I got the penalty fare delivered there. And after 7 months, idk how, they tracked me down to the current address. (Probably because meanwhile I passed my full driving license which is registered at the current address)

 

[Dai Corner]

Back then I had a provisional driving licence and the address on it was the previous one. I was already living somewhere else at the time. So I assume I got the penalty fare delivered there. And after 7 months, idk how, they tracked me down to the current address. (Probably because meanwhile I passed my full driving license which is registered at the current address)

So you gave them a false address?

 

[island]

It’s a further offence not to update the address on your driving licence when you move.

 

[najaB]

So you gave them a false address?

Being charitable, an out of date rather than false address.

 

[mallard]

So you gave them a false address?

From the sounds of it, he (sorry if that's the wrong pronoun) didn't "give" an address at all. He provided ID, which had an address on it, which the staff member took to be correct without confirmation. That would be the staff member's mistake, not the passenger's.

 

[swt_passenger]

From the sounds of it, he (sorry if that's the wrong pronoun) didn't "give" an address at all. He provided ID, which had an address on it, which the staff member took to be correct without confirmation. That would be the staff member's mistake, not the passenger's.

It’s equally possible that the OP knew exactly what he was doing at that time, hoping that using an out of date address would affect the outcome.

I disagree that the staff member has caused the problem.

 

[Dai Corner]

From the sounds of it, he (sorry if that's the wrong pronoun) didn't "give" an address at all. He provided ID, which had an address on it, which the staff member took to be correct without confirmation. That would be the staff member's mistake, not the passenger's.

It could be argued that it was the passenger's omission (in not informing the DVLA or the staff member of his change of address).

 

[mallard]

I disagree that the staff member has caused the problem.

If the staff member did not confirm the address verbally, then it's absolutely their mistake. It's extremely common for address details on long-term ID (such as a driver's licence) to be out-of-date. Sure, you're supposed to inform the DVLA, but they don't issue new ID instantly and for people who move frequently (e.g. students) it's widely accepted that it's not worth it (students often use their parents' address on ID, but there are cases where even that isn't possible).

The passenger may not even realise that the ID is being used to gather an address unless it's mentioned. If they do not (and why would they?) how can they be blamed for not providing a correction to the staff member?

 

[Haywain]

The passenger may not even realise that the ID is being used to gather an address unless it's mentioned.

I would suggest that in this case that was clearly known as the OP states "Months past and I never received anything". They were hardly likely to expect to receive anything if they didn't think they had given an address.

 

[swt_passenger]

But what do people think revenue protection staff can do with just a name? To me, it is implicit in "have you got ID" that they'll take down the address as well if proffered. It would be naive to think otherwise.

 

[Dai Corner]

But what do people think revenue protection staff can do with just a name? To me, it is implicit in "have you got ID" that they'll take down the address as well if proffered. It would be naive to think otherwise.

Unless the staff member has a photographic memory he'd have to write the address down, and it would surely be obvious that's what he was doing. It was at that point that a passenger should say 'actually I've just moved and my current address is.......'

 

[Spurs]

If the staff member did not confirm the address verbally, then it's absolutely their mistake. It's extremely common for address details on long-term ID (such as a driver's licence) to be out-of-date. Sure, you're supposed to inform the DVLA, but they don't issue new ID instantly and for people who move frequently (e.g. students) it's widely accepted that it's not worth it (students often use their parents' address on ID, but there are cases where even that isn't possible).

The passenger may not even realise that the ID is being used to gather an address unless it's mentioned. If they do not (and why would they?) how can they be blamed for not providing a correction to the staff member?

You're supposed to inform the DVLA immediately, and as soon as your application is submitted cut the old license in two and post it to them. A staff member assuming that the ID offered is being held in accordance with the law isn't unreasonable.

 

[takno]

You're supposed to inform the DVLA immediately, and as soon as your application is submitted cut the old license in two and post it to them. A staff member assuming that the ID offered is being held in accordance with the law isn't unreasonable.

The DVLA seem to say that a lot, but usually in the same press release as they say that 7% of holders have an out-of-date address on their license. I can't offhand find any basis in law for the DVLA to require people who don't drive to keep their documentation up to date (it may exist, I'm not a lawyer and I can't be bothered to look very hard). In any event I also can't see any links to any cases anywhere where any enforcement action has been taken against anybody for having the wrong address, except where they have been driving.

If I need to prove my ID to a bank or employer they won't accept a driving licence as current proof of address, so I can't see why a staff member in another industry that is nothing to do with driving should be able to assume that ID which wasn't issued by them or for their purposes would be up-to-date.

 

[Fare-Cop]

A staff member assuming that the ID offered is being held in accordance with the law isn't unreasonable.

Exactly what the Magistrates would have assumed too. If the Court asked ‘how was the (absentee) defendant identified?’ The prosecutor will have said something along the lines of “s/he showed a provisional driving licence which bore a photograph of the traveller and bore the address to which the Summons was served.”

In those circumstances and if you were the Magistrate, what would you assume?

 

[island]

If I need to prove my ID to a bank or employer they won't accept a driving licence as current proof of address

I work for a bank. We will.

 

[farleigh]

I work for a bank. We will.

Bit lax that - TSB??

 

[najaB]

I work for a bank. We will.

Without anything else (e.g. recent bill)?

 

[Hadders]

A driving license is not sufficient to prove you have the right to work in the UK.

You don't need to have the right to work in the UK to open a bank account therefore I assume a driving license is acceptable as a means of identification for this.

 

[takno]

A driving license is not sufficient to prove you have the right to work in the UK.

You don't need to have the right to work in the UK to open a bank account therefore I assume a driving license is acceptable as a means of identification for this.

I was talking specifically about proving my address. In neither event was I proving my right to work in the UK. Rules on this vary and are often risk-based, but frankly I'm surprised if a bank is taking a DL address at face value, particularly if the customer is not applying for a product they are credit checking.

 

[Hadders]

The law is very clear about what is and isn't allowed when proving the right to work in the UK. If employing someone it is important to make sure you see the correct type of documentation as this will provide a defence int he event that the person you've employed is found to be an illegal worker.

Different rules exist for other situations. As far as a passenger on the railway is concerned there is no requirement to provide any ID. All that you need to give is your name and address.

 

[island]

I was talking specifically about proving my address. In neither event was I proving my right to work in the UK. Rules on this vary and are often risk-based, but frankly I'm surprised if a bank is taking a DL address at face value, particularly if the customer is not applying for a product they are credit checking.

Given it’s an offence not to update the address on your driving licence if you move, it’s arguably more reliable as proof of address than most of the usual alternatives such as utility bills.

But yes, we use electronic verification methods as a first preference and where these have failed, as well as asking for one or two proofs of address, we will post a letter to the address with a code on it and require the customer to call in quoting the code before they can have a lending product.

 

[takno]

Given it’s an offence not to update the address on your driving licence if you move, it’s arguably more reliable as proof of address than most of the usual alternatives such as utility bills.

But yes, we use electronic verification methods as a first preference and where these have failed, as well as asking for one or two proofs of address, we will post a letter to the address with a code on it and require the customer to call in quoting the code before they can have a lending product.

Can you provide a link to the specific offence? Aside from a periodic assertion by the DVLA that it is a legal requirement, I've never heard of any enforcement of it for non-drivers, or seen any links to it in law.

 

[Essan]

Without anything else (e.g. recent bill)?

A Driving Licence provides proof of identity (otherwise a passport or gun licence). However, I believe a provisional driving licence is not acceptable by banks etc (may be wrong though).

(I was once denied a bank account because I didn't drive, travel abroad or shoot things)

Additional proof of address is also required, usually a utility or council tax bill.

There is no requirement to carry proof of identity or address in the UK. However, if asked for your address and you provide an identity document with it on, it would be assumed this address was correct. I am wondering if this was the case here?

 

[Dai Corner]

Can you provide a link to the specific offence? Aside from a periodic assertion by the DVLA that it is a legal requirement, I've never heard of any enforcement of it for non-drivers, or seen any links to it in law.

Road Traffic Act 1988

4)Where the name or address of the licence holder as specified in a licence ceases to be correct, its holder must forthwith surrender the licence F73... to the Secretary of State F74... .
.......

F82[F83(7)On the surrender of a licence F84... by a person in pursuance of subsection (2A), (3) or (4) above, the Secretary of State must (subject to the following provisions of this section) grant a new licence to that person F85. . . .