banner repeaters

[Northerner]

Simple question regarding banner repeaters , why do then revert to the "on" position when train passes them, before the train has actually passed the associated signal?

 

[Tomnick]

Not all do - I think it's a requirement for new installations now, but only if there's a separate track circuit between the banner repeater and the associated signal. Presumably minimises the risk of an oopsie if a second train approaches (on a permissive platform, for example) whilst the first's standing between the two.

 

[455driver]

A second train should not be signalled into a platform if the starter is off for another train in that platform.

 

[John Webb]

The requirement for the banner signal to revert to danger behind a train, even if the signal it refers to is still at 'clear', has been around for many years where track circuits are in place. At the restored/preserved St Albans South signal box, our simulator reverts any banner signal to the 'On' position as soon as the track circuit in advance of the banner is occupied; the indicator on the block shelf is also switched to the 'On' position. This was how things worked up until 1979, when the box was closed.

 

[table38]

You can just about see this in the following video of Stalybridge Platform 4. The repeater at the end of the platform is on after the 170 passes it, but before the next signal goes to red.

[youtube]ytITrvhhOt4[/youtube]

 

[TDK]

A second train should not be signalled into a platform if the starter is off for another train in that platform.

There may already be a train in the platform

 

[Tomnick]

A second train should not be signalled into a platform if the starter is off for another train in that platform.

Certainly not on most installations nowadays, but some older ones might still. I can certainly think of one case where the platform starter's an auto. There's also the possibility of one approaching when it shouldn't - "proceed at caution, being prepared to stop short of any obstruction" mitigates against that, but the banner repeater off might lead the chap into a false sense of security. Unlikely...but you never know!

 

[Signal Head]

The requirement for the banner signal to revert to danger behind a train, even if the signal it refers to is still at 'clear', has been around for many years where track circuits are in place. At the restored/preserved St Albans South signal box, our simulator reverts any banner signal to the 'On' position as soon as the track circuit in advance of the banner is occupied; the indicator on the block shelf is also switched to the 'On' position. This was how things worked up until 1979, when the box was closed.

It's not quite that simple. Where there is already a separate TC between banner and 'main' signal or where one is to provided for other reasons, then it will generally replace the banner to danger, because this has no additional cost.

If there is a Permissive move (Call-on or Shunt) up to the main signal (ie past the banner) then a separate TC is required for replacement purposes, but if all movements require the line clear up to the main signal, then it is not required to split the TC simply to replace the banner.

I know of a few banners commissioned recently where there is no replacement TC for this reason. Conversely, I have also come across cases where the TC has ben split when it didn't need to be, presumably because someone hasn't interpreted the standard correctly.

 

[John Webb]

It's not quite that simple. Where there is already a separate TC between banner and 'main' signal or where one is to provided for other reasons, then it will generally replace the banner to danger, because this has no additional cost.......

For information the banner repeated the Home signal and it was the berth TC for the Home that put the banner back to 'On'. I appreciate that this wasn't perhaps a general rule, but I thought it was an example from some time ago worth mentioning. (It was the Up Slow and Up Fast lines that had the banner repeaters due to curvature and road bridges on the approach to St Albans City station.)

More recently NR have put up a tri-state repeater adjacent to the box:

This is on the Down Fast and is repeating the aspect of the signal at the far end of the platform. (The other banner repeater is on the Down Slow but has not been changed to a tri-state version.)

 

[westcoaster]

For information the banner repeated the Home signal and it was the berth TC for the Home that put the banner back to 'On'. I appreciate that this wasn't perhaps a general rule, but I thought it was an example from some time ago worth mentioning. (It was the Up Slow and Up Fast lines that had the banner repeaters due to curvature and road bridges on the approach to St Albans City station.)

More recently NR have put up a tri-state repeater adjacent to the box:

This is on the Down Fast and is repeating the aspect of the signal at the far end of the platform. (The other banner repeater is on the Down Slow but has not been changed to a tri-state version.)

These are green banner repeaters being installed on the MML due to the speed increases, it works the same s a normal banner repeater except it shows green when the associated signal is green, and white when a restrictive signal is shown.

 

[edwin_m]

There's a green banner for the signal protecting Lenton North Junction too, on a 50mph route (approaching from Nottingham). I wonder if they have superseded the white-only ones on new schemes.

 

[TOCDriver]

There's a green banner for the signal protecting Lenton North Junction too, on a 50mph route (approaching from Nottingham). I wonder if they have superseded the white-only ones on new schemes.

Wigan North Western has just had a green BR installed at the end of platform 4. It replaced the ancient mechanical BR that had been there for decades. Nice looking thing it is too

 

[callum112233]

These are green banner repeaters being installed on the MML due to the speed increases, it works the same s a normal banner repeater except it shows green when the associated signal is green, and white when a restrictive signal is shown.

There's one at Wigan North Western too.

oops, beaten to it ^

 

[BestWestern]

These are green banner repeaters being installed on the MML due to the speed increases, it works the same s a normal banner repeater except it shows green when the associated signal is green, and white when a restrictive signal is shown.

There's one at Wigan North Western too.

oops, beaten to it ^

One on the Down Main between Bath and Bristol TM, too.

 

[A-driver]

There's a green banner for the signal protecting Lenton North Junction too, on a 50mph route (approaching from Nottingham). I wonder if they have superseded the white-only ones on new schemes.

A lot of new banners are green but they are still installing white only ones.

The new one at sandy on the ECML up lines are capable if showing green although are yet to be commissioned so currently only show white (they have only been operating for almost 2 years so give them a chance to get around to it...!)

The new one at Alexandra palace on the up slow shows green and is very useful, especially with a semi fast in the morning peak so you don't end up stopping at reds in the platforms at places like Hornsey where people bang on the cab door insisting you let them on etc.

But the new banner put in at Hertford north on the up as part if the Hertford re-signalling is a white only as far as I know (it certainly dosnt show green even if its capable of it) so I'm pretty sure they only put green ones in if its likely to speed things up.

Slightly unrelated but the new standard for banners at junction signals is that you need split banners. At Alexandra palace the new banner is not split and as a result it will remain 'on' even if the signal is 'off' but with a diverging route. This has caught quite a few people out as a lot of drivers stop at the banner if its on to avoid stopping in the platform when not booked to call there (for reasons described above). The signaller then ends up having to call them up to let them know the signal is off but they need to draw forward to find out!

 

[TDK]

A lot of new banners are green but they are still installing white only ones.

The new one at sandy on the ECML up lines are capable if showing green although are yet to be commissioned so currently only show white (they have only been operating for almost 2 years so give them a chance to get around to it...!)

The new one at Alexandra palace on the up slow shows green and is very useful, especially with a semi fast in the morning peak so you don't end up stopping at reds in the platforms at places like Hornsey where people bang on the cab door insisting you let them on etc.

But the new banner put in at Hertford north on the up as part if the Hertford re-signalling is a white only as far as I know (it certainly dosnt show green even if its capable of it) so I'm pretty sure they only put green ones in if its likely to speed things up.

Slightly unrelated but the new standard for banners at junction signals is that you need split banners. At Alexandra palace the new banner is not split and as a result it will remain 'on' even if the signal is 'off' but with a diverging route. This has caught quite a few people out as a lot of drivers stop at the banner if its on to avoid stopping in the platform when not booked to call there (for reasons described above). The signaller then ends up having to call them up to let them know the signal is off but they need to draw forward to find out!

Why on earth would a driver in a modern train want to stop at a banner repeater to avoid entering a platform. Surely the drivers who go over this route were briefed on the workings of this system?

 

[Tomnick]

If the signal doesn't clear for the diverging route until it's in sight (as many with approach control do) then you'd never get the banner repeater to come off even if it was a splitting example...but then I suppose you might be able to release the signal earlier? Drivers stopping at banner repeaters sound like drivers waiting forever for a yellow to turn into a green anyway...done with the best intentions, I'm sure, but sometimes not at all helpful!

 

[A-driver]

Why on earth would a driver in a modern train want to stop at a banner repeater to avoid entering a platform. Surely the drivers who go over this route were briefed on the workings of this system?

Try stopping a train not booked to call at one of those stations in the morning rush hour with a red at the end. The train becomes mobbed with crowds (often 5deep on the platform) trying to open the doors. Signal changes and there is no way you can safely move off as the mirrors or monitors are so crowded with people against the side of the train trying to get on despite the doors remaining locked. Then there is the punters knocking on the cab door asking why you won't open the doors.

The signal at Alexandra palace which the mentioned banner is for would only put a passenger train onto the fast line and nothing is booked to do that in the peak-it's only ever used during disruption so actually it's not as unusual as you think to assume the diverging route isn't set. And as you normally get caught in congestion and run red light to red light between wood green and Finsbury park in the mornings it's a very fair assumption that you will be fine hanging back at the banner until the train I front clears the section.

So thanks for your rather patronising input but we are actually briefed on the system and do know what we are doing. It's far more sensible and safer to stop at the banner rather than stop a train in the platform that dosnt call there.

 

[A-driver]

If the signal doesn't clear for the diverging route until it's in sight (as many with approach control do) then you'd never get the banner repeater to come off even if it was a splitting example...but then I suppose you might be able to release the signal earlier? Drivers stopping at banner repeaters sound like drivers waiting forever for a yellow to turn into a green anyway...done with the best intentions, I'm sure, but sometimes not at all helpful!

See my above post-there is no way you can stop a non-stop train in some of those platforms due to the crowding. Hanging back is a fairly recognised method there. As I say above, the chances of getting the diverging route there at that time of day is almost zero so it really only happens during disruption. The signallers understand we do it and tend to phone us up to let us know its set for the fast.

 

[westcoaster]

Must be a GN thing then, never heard of anyone stopping at banner repeaters ever, now stopping at the platform ramp is not uncommon as the signal is in full view (location dependent), or crawling along till it clears. I really find it hard to see the justification of doing as you mentioned.

 

[petersi]

I am not a driver but the platforms can be crowed like a tube station and Hornsey looks narrow.

So drivers may need to drive differently to be safe.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Tomnick]

See my above post-there is no way you can stop a non-stop train in some of those platforms due to the crowding. Hanging back is a fairly recognised method there. As I say above, the chances of getting the diverging route there at that time of day is almost zero so it really only happens during disruption. The signallers understand we do it and tend to phone us up to let us know its set for the fast.

Thanks for the explanation - seems fairly sensible, I suppose. Can't see a problem as long as everyone's aware that it's an accepted practice at that location!

 

[A-driver]

Must be a GN thing then, never heard of anyone stopping at banner repeaters ever, now stopping at the platform ramp is not uncommon as the signal is in full view (location dependent), or crawling along till it clears. I really find it hard to see the justification of doing as you mentioned.

As you say-stopping at the platform ramp is not uncommon. The banner at Ali Pali is on the platform ramp. Both Hornsey and harringay trains commonly stop on the ramp with just the cab on, at Ali Pali you have to be a fair way into the platform to see the signal.

If you could see how crowded those platforms get in rush hour (far worse than thameskink platforms either side of the river) and the fact the the passengers are incredibly frustrated there as all trains are full by the time they reach those stations you would see plenty of justification! You would have to release the doors just to get people out the way enough to see its clear in the monitors to start the train moving again!

As I say, at that location it is so rare to get a diverging route unless empty stock that signaller will often let you know in advance as they know many drivers will stop at the banner. If not then sending an 'SG' straight after stopping generally gets a call letting you know that if you draw up a bit the signal will come off to the up fast or up goods.

 

[Northerner]

To answer the question about stopping in platforms when not booked to call, it is down to drivers route knowledge knowing when the signal will come into sight. On the up relief lines into padd, there are signals at the end of both Hayes & Southall not really places you want to stop when not booked . I normally crawl towards the signal , but I wouldn't stop at the banner outside Hayes . As for frustrated passengers ? it is equally frustrating for a driver of a DOO train to shut the doors when people are literally clambering over each other to get on the train, and lets be honest there is another train 6mins behind mine.

 

[TDK]

So thanks for your rather patronising input but we are actually briefed on the system and do know what we are doing. It's far more sensible and safer to stop at the banner rather than stop a train in the platform that dosnt call there.

I would say it would far safer to regulate the speed of your train so you were no approaching reds if you know there is a train in front. This is the method I use, or even slow to a very slow speed approaching the signal. I suppose route knowledge plays a huge part in this scenario as it does with all train driving. I would say you are correct in saying it is safer to stop short of the platform but I would say it is more sensible to regulate the speed of the train to avoid having to stop at all.

 

[A-driver]

I would say it would far safer to regulate the speed of your train so you were no approaching reds if you know there is a train in front. This is the method I use, or even slow to a very slow speed approaching the signal. I suppose route knowledge plays a huge part in this scenario as it does with all train driving. I would say you are correct in saying it is safer to stop short of the platform but I would say it is more sensible to regulate the speed of the train to avoid having to stop at all.

Of course we regulate our speed but at that time in the morning, even with minor disruption, crawling along at around 10mph still sees you having to stop as there are stoppers and fasts on the same bit of track. And trains at Drayton park take time to change voltage which easily has a knock on effect back to Alexandra palace and so having to come to a stand for a red is almost inevitable.

Of course all this will change as soon as network rail finally get the up goods opened to passenger trains (now 3 weeks overdue I believe) and the all the non stop palmers green-Finsbury or southgate-Finsbury traffic can be routed up the goods away from the stoppers.