Becoming a Train driver - 'Self taught'

[Mark282]

Hello all,

The is my first post on here, though I have read though many of the threads on this part of the forum.

I have a question about becoming a train driver, and wonder if someone can help? Are there are any similarities between joining the rail industry to joining the airline industry? In the airline world you can look for training / sponsorship opportunities, however they are very few and far between. Most people will self fund their commercial pilots license so that they can join the airlines ready to start right away (Thats a bit simplified but in essence, that how it works).

I understand that in the rail industry, there are some opportunities to take direct entry driving jobs, but I know a lot of people move into driving from within the company - The one company who I have spoken to so far say there is no opportunities for direct entry driving jobs.

Is there anything that I can do, any tests I can sit or exams I can take that will start me on the road to becoming a driver? I am very nervous about giving up a well paid professional job to take another job with an TOC / FC just so I can get my foot in the door. If I'm going to give up what I already have, then I need to know (as best as is reasonably possible!) that it will lead me to where I want to be!

I appreciate that some people might think that if I want it bad enough then I'll give up my job and go for it, but its not so easy with a family to consider, and a mortgage to pay etc etc!!!

I know I can pay to sit the assessments myself and that is something that I am planning to do during the coming months. However if that goes well, is there anything else I can do that will help me land a driving job? Is there simply a training organisation who I can pay to teach me / give me the qualifications I need to become a train driver?

Many thanks
Mark

 

[Class2ldn]

In a word no!! Well not that I know of. The railway is a strictly run regime and doing the tests is the only way to get in. No exceptions im afraid. Ive heard of a company doing guards training but id be a bit wary of that.
In regards to leaving your job its one of those things, everyones had the same dilemma and there are no guarantees but there is plenty of people and websites etc that you can use to help you along the way. You only get two chances at the assessment (fails) and id say try and it and see how you do. If you fail twice move on, if you pass use all the available people and knowledge from various places to improve your chances of passing the course. Its a long way to go but its worth it at the end.

 

[TDK]

Hello all,

The is my first post on here, though I have read though many of the threads on this part of the forum.

I have a question about becoming a train driver, and wonder if someone can help? Are there are any similarities between joining the rail industry to joining the airline industry? In the airline world you can look for training / sponsorship opportunities, however they are very few and far between. Most people will self fund their commercial pilots license so that they can join the airlines ready to start right away (Thats a bit simplified but in essence, that how it works).

I understand that in the rail industry, there are some opportunities to take direct entry driving jobs, but I know a lot of people move into driving from within the company - The one company who I have spoken to so far say there is no opportunities for direct entry driving jobs.

Is there anything that I can do, any tests I can sit or exams I can take that will start me on the road to becoming a driver? I am very nervous about giving up a well paid professional job to take another job with an TOC / FC just so I can get my foot in the door. If I'm going to give up what I already have, then I need to know (as best as is reasonably possible!) that it will lead me to where I want to be!

I appreciate that some people might think that if I want it bad enough then I'll give up my job and go for it, but its not so easy with a family to consider, and a mortgage to pay etc etc!!!

I know I can pay to sit the assessments myself and that is something that I am planning to do during the coming months. However if that goes well, is there anything else I can do that will help me land a driving job? Is there simply a training organisation who I can pay to teach me / give me the qualifications I need to become a train driver?

Many thanks
Mark

As the above post explains, nothing really. However, to be a train driver it is favourable to have worked shifts, spent long periods alone, have extremely good coordination, be level headed, have some sort of mecahnical knowledge and also be able to sit a 6 week course in a classroom without any problems. If anything you do or achieve fits into these catagories then yes it will help. Paying for anything apart from the driver psychometrical tests will be a waste of your time and money I am afraid.

 

[Silv1983]

As above, no shortcuts really. Just stick to going for the direct entry approach. Problem solved. If you're not up to the standard for any reason whilst trying to get in this way - then it's unlikely taking another role will have any benefits.
Regarding the assessment centre issue - I would personally let a TOC pay for it!

 

[Mark282]

Thank you all very much for the replies. It wasn't so much as looking for a short cut but rather trying to put myself in the best possible position to be offered a job. A case of saying look, I can pass all this stuff - I'm a good bet!

Thank you once again for your replies. Its really helpfull.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I'd be interested to know which TIC you have been in contact with. I suspect, it is one of those that does very little in the way of training. Unless you are looking at small depots, where vacs are few and far between, there is absolutely no need to be in the industry, to become a driver. TDK has outlined the skills required; it doesn't matter if you've developed them on the railway, or outside it.

There's been a good few trainee jobs of late, and it has been good to read on here of people getting them, both from within the industry, and without.

 

[Mark282]

E&W - I dont know the 'rules' or etiquette for naming companies of here so I will refrain from doing that, however, just to say, the company I spoke with is one of the larger freight operators in the UK.

I do believe that I posses the qualities that TDK mentions, and while I don't work a regular shift pattern, I do regularly find myself going home at 5pm, getting a few hours sleep (when possible!), and then going back to work at 1am for a 12 hour 'shift' - I also spend long periods at work on my own, but where 100% concentration must be maintained thought the day / night.

I'm also a qualified pilot so I think that help prove / demonstrate good hand - eye co ordination... And I have a degree so I hope that will help to show the TOC / FC that I can study for extended periods of time!

I've bought some of the books that are on the market to help improve my ability to pass the assessment test... I'll start working through them, and get myself in as good a position as possible before applying for some positions!

Thank you all for your help.

 

[E&W Lucas]

You've got to apply for jobs that actually exist, or are likely to crop up, and training opportunities with freight companies are few and far between. Most are with the commuter outfits, with progression from there to freight or inter city work, if either takes your fancy.

The whole training process, is designed for people with no prior knowledge. What is needed is aptutude and the right temperament. If you are flying, then you are dealing with a very similar environment. If you've had responsibility in the workplace, then you shouldn't find the selection process a problem.

Beware of people who want to earn their crust, by exploiting your desire for a new career.

As for naming employers, I don't. I'm professional staff, and don't think it is appropriate to discuss my employer explicitly in cyberspace.

 

[doubleamber]

If your commercial, why you wanting to get out????

 

[Mark282]

If your commercial, why you wanting to get out????

Forget getting out, I have a lot of very good friends who are commercial and the problem at the moment is struggling to stay in... Not willing-fully leaving!

Me personally. I'm not flying for the airlines... I just know and understand that system. Hence me asking if there wee any similarities!

 

[Flyboy]

If your commercial, why you wanting to get out????

Doubleamber - I am commercial and believe me it's NOT a good industry to be part of these days. To use a contemporary cliche, it's a race to the bottom. Terms and conditions are being continually eroded and, although we have some Union presence in the shape of BALPA, they have a miniscule amount of power and influence in comparison to the might of rail industry Unions.

One thing on the rise in commercial aviation is what's known as P2F, or Pay to Fly. Newly-qualified commercial pilots who have just spent upwards of £80k gaining their licence are now asked by some airlines to pay out an additional £20k to £30k to work for that airline for 6 months! The airlines class it as "paying for experience" and it's absolutely disgraceful. If some of the stuff that's being happening in commercial aviation over the last 10 years were even whispered in railway circles, the entire industry would down tools and be out of there door in a flash!

Mark282 - I'm sure the previous posts have given you the answer in that there's nothing you can do outside of the rail industry that would earn you a driving qualification within it, and the fact that it's like that should be applauded. You can, of course, do the DBS assessments to see if you have the aptitude for driving.

In regard to your comment about occasionally going home at 5pm and being back at work at 1am, I appreciate that you might be trying to highlight a point about shift working, but I seriously doubt that under such circumstances you would be able to maintain anywhere near 100% concentration following what would have been a period of insufficient rest.

Fatigue and insufficient rest - now why am I so familair with those.....:roll:

 

[TDK]

Doubleamber -
In regard to your comment about occasionally going home at 5pm and being back at work at 1am, I appreciate that you might be trying to highlight a point about shift working, but I seriously doubt that under such circumstances you would be able to maintain anywhere near 100% concentration following what would have been a period of insufficient rest.

Fatigue and insufficient rest - now why am I so familair with those.....:roll:

There are standards on the railway that means you have to have 12 hours break between shifts plus other restraints - the unions have a big say in diagrams and rostering to protect drivers over doing the fatigue index and even this is changing over the next couple of years to a more strict resting process.

 

[Beveridges]

the unions have a big say in diagrams and rostering to protect drivers over doing the fatigue index and even this is changing over the next couple of years to a more strict resting process.

Any ideas on what some of the changes will be?

 

[TDK]

Any ideas on what some of the changes will be?

Time off between shifts, unsociable hours turn lengths, finish a late shift and have at least 48 hours before the next shift if it is a booked day off, continuous driving hours, better breaks from the driving cab - there are many other factors but these are just some of them. The fatigue index tool is what you need to use with current shifts and anything in the red will need to be addressed. Some depots are going to need an extra 5% - 10% diagrams and if there are 10 diagrams additional this means that depot will need 15 extra drivers to cover.

 

[Flyboy]

Breaks - we didn't have them in my last airline, and it was worse for the cabin crew as they were instructed to take breaks (including to eat) during flight, which is usually impossible in a short haul environment. Thanks to new European legislation brought in recently, already-fatigued pilots and cabin crew can now work longer hours!

Good on the railway industry for looking after its staff in this way.

 

[W230]

Thanks to new European legislation brought in recently, already-fatigued pilots and cabin crew can now work longer hours!

I'm sure I read something recently about an increase in the number of pilots falling asleep while mid-air. It probably should have concerned me more but it actually made me smile!

 

[Dave1987]

I'm sure I read something recently about an increase in the number of pilots falling asleep while mid-air. It probably should have concerned me more but it actually made me smile!

To be honest Pilots do not "fly" the aircraft apart from take-off anyway so I see no issue with increasing air crew hours. There is no skill in flying a modern aircraft just simply entering data into the Flight management system so the auto pilot can do the rest.

 

[Flyboy]

The temptation to react to that is almost overwhelming, but I suspect it's a deliberately provocative comment so I'll ignore it. If not deliberately provocative then naive in the extreme, as well as being completely wrong as I'm sure all who read it will realise.

 

[GB]

The temptation to react to that is almost overwhelming, but I suspect it's a deliberately provocative comment so I'll ignore it. If not deliberately provocative then naive in the extreme, as well as being completely wrong as I'm sure all who read it will realise.

Fully agree with what you have said. What a poor comment that poster posted.:roll:

 

[Dave1987]

The temptation to react to that is almost overwhelming, but I suspect it's a deliberately provocative comment so I'll ignore it. If not deliberately provocative then naive in the extreme, as well as being completely wrong as I'm sure all who read it will realise.

I used to be aircraft ground crew, I know exactly what it takes to fly a modern jet. The Flight Management System and Air data computers feed all the relevant info to the auto pilot. All the pilots have to do is input the relevant data into the FMS during prep, then taxi, as soon as the landing is retracted the auto pilot is engaged and is not turned off until the wheels are on the ground. The modern jets even land themselves. There is no skill in fyling aircraft anymore. Believe me I know all about how aircraft work. It was not a provocative comment, just the truth. When I flew with the aircraft I worked on the crew spent most of their time either doing pub quizzes over the the headsets, reading or asleep. One of them had to be awake to make radio calls. They openly admitted to us ground crew that flying big jets was very boring.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fully agree with what you have said. What a poor comment that poster posted.:roll:

Sorry but have you ever worked on aircraft? How do you know that was a poor comment? I can reel off exactly what the pilot have to do during flight if you want :roll:

 

[Mark282]

Dave - I'm sorry but it really is a poor comment.

Gents, Thank you all for your input so far. At least the path is clearer now. We (people hoping to become train drivers) are all in the same boat, there is no buying your ticket! And I have to agree, that can only be a good thing.

Flyboy, you are right about the ability to concentrate after and day at work followed by a night shift. While that is true, and I have done it on more than one occasion with my current job, it is not an ideal situation. I was simply using in this case to highlight that I'm not against the unsociable hours that come with driving trains!!!

 

[Dave1987]

Dave - I'm sorry but it really is a poor comment.

Gents, Thank you all for your input so far. At least the path is clearer now. We (people hoping to become train drivers) are all in the same boat, there is no buying your ticket! And I have to agree, that can only be a good thing.

Flyboy, you are right about the ability to concentrate after and day at work followed by a night shift. While that is true, and I have done it on more than one occasion with my current job, it is not an ideal situation. I was simply using in this case to highlight that I'm not against the unsociable hours that come with driving trains!!!

Thats ok I didn't think it was a poor comment but hey ho

(Nice to know that the industry I left hasn't changed one little bit, makes me a little bit more satisfied I left actually for a career in the the railways)

Good luck with your search!!

 

[Beveridges]

finish a late shift and have at least 48 hours before the next shift if it is a booked day off

This is where my TOC Northern will have to change things significantly. At the moment it is very common for drivers to finish a late shift on Saturday night and have just 24-28 hours off before the next shift, an early turn on Monday morning.

 

[TDK]

I used to be aircraft ground crew, I know exactly what it takes to fly a modern jet. The Flight Management System and Air data computers feed all the relevant info to the auto pilot. All the pilots have to do is input the relevant data into the FMS during prep, then taxi, as soon as the landing is retracted the auto pilot is engaged and is not turned off until the wheels are on the ground.

Unless you hit a flock of Canadian Geese, lose both engines and ditch into the Hudson river saving the lives of all on board. Dave, sorry mate your comment was out of touch and also provocative.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is where my TOC Northern will have to change things significantly. At the moment it is very common for drivers to finish a late shift on Saturday night and have just 24-28 hours off before the next shift, an early turn on Monday morning.

Indeed Bev, there are alot things changing in the drivers grade including the competence managment system. Thses figures are what I have been shown it does not mean they will be adhered too however when Eurpoe shouts everyone jumps. I am not sure with MDD or guards either all I had was the peoposals for the drivers. If it does come in you will benefit for the maximum of a 7 hour turn with an hours break if booking on after 23.59 or before 04.00, I also was told that booking on before 5am and after 23.00 will be a maximum of 8 hours also, every turn will book on at 05.01

 

[Dave1987]

Unless you hit a flock of Canadian Geese, lose both engines and ditch into the Hudson river saving the lives of all on board. Dave, sorry mate your comment was out of touch and also provocative.

Just like the air France pilot who continually pulled back on the stick because he didnt really know what he was doing and killed everyone on board, even the crash investigators said they couldn't understand why he did it. I respect you a lot TDK and I really don't want get into this argument. I have my own qualified views on the subject. My post was not provocative but pure fact.

 

[Mark282]

Dave,
I joined the forum to find out how to follow my dream and become a train driver, however I have to ask, would you be happy to take your family on a flight to Spain and let the pilots have a day off while your former ground crew colleagues fly you there instead? Thats a serious question so please be honest with your answer.

 

[Dave1987]

Dave,
I joined the forum to find out how to follow my dream and become a train driver, however I have to ask, would you be happy to take your family on a flight to Spain and let the pilots have a day off while your former ground crew colleagues fly you there instead? Thats a serious question so please be honest with your answer.

To be totally honest yes. The leckies and fairies (aircraft ground crew speak for electrical and avionics engineers) I worked with knew the aircrafts systems inside out and could easily fly them. The only thing they would probably need a bit of training on is the radio comms and airport taxi instructions from ATC. Modern aircraft are flown by computers simple as that. The pilots input waypoint, fuel, loading data. The computer even tells the pilot exactly how much runway they need to take off. I was a "heavy" (worked on engines and airframes). Sorry if doesn't sit with people ideology about pilots but it is totally true. Small light aircraft and helicopters are actually "flown" by the pilot.

Like I said before I wish you the best of luck in following your dream. Since I have joined the industry I have loved it.

 

[Tomnick]

Hmm. I'm sure the ground crew could do what needs to be done to point the plane in the right direction. In exactly the same way, you could train a monkey to pull the right levers or push the right buttons in any signal box or get a train moving and stop it in the right place. Until something goes wrong, our vast Rules knowledge comes to the fore, we start earning our money and the monkey no longer knows what to do...

 

[Mark282]

Small light aircraft and helicopters are actually "flown" by the pilot.

Thats me covered then! - I am surprised by your views, and I'm pleased I dont know what airline you worked for!!!! I have a number of friends who fly for the airlines, and I know that their experience is very different to yours. But each to their own!

Thanks very much for your luck! I appreciate it. I feel like the time is right to make a change. I've thought about this for a long time. I just hope I can make it happen!

I dont think it's rocket science, but I do think it will take a lot of effort, study & determination!

 

[Dave1987]

Thats me covered then! - I am surprised by your views, and I'm pleased I dont know what airline you worked for!!!! I have a number of friends who fly for the airlines, and I know that their experience is very different to yours. But each to their own!

Thanks very much for your luck! I appreciate it. I feel like the time is right to make a change. I've thought about this for a long time. I just hope I can make it happen!

I dont think it's rocket science, but I do think it will take a lot of effort, study & determination!

There is no skill in putting data into a flight computer which is what they do. They may have to look at charts etc but it is still data entry for the computers. Where as small aircraft and helicopters pilot actually have to fly the aircraft not just type numbers and letters onto a flight management computer keyboard. It's only when things go wrong that they actually do anything else. I know I will be criticised like fury for saying it but it is the truth.