Bermondsey dive under open

[Deepgreen]

It would have been in traditional yellow London brick. The colour of the original viaduct is almost black after hundred+ years of polution. I think it is nice that NR have realised the heritage of the viaduct and have faced the new section in London brick but surely it added unnecessary cost and time to the project? The brick appears to be purely cosmetic unless anyone knows different.

With all respect to Millwall supporters & Bermondsey residents it is hardly in a scenic area being sandwiched between the New Den, a recyling centre, railway lines and a post industrial wasteland!

If you want to see a great example of what restored London brick looks like compared to ones stained by years of polution then take a look at the building sandwiched between the new Borough market jct overbridge and the original. It was restored last year and all the original brick completely cleaned except for the side which was too close to the original line for the contractor to work on.

Efforts to blend new and old shouldn't be restricted to Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty. I imagine the cost of the bricks was tiny compared to the overall scheme, the time spent would also be minimal (and would have been done in parallel with other activities, thus not lengthening the overall programme) and NR is right to recognise heritage, albeit with a modern structure. Of course, cleaning the old brickwork to match the new would be the best way to give the full effect.

 

[QueensCurve]

Thanks for confirmation, my copy of that particular pdf doesn't get much better even when magnified...

Where can we access the PDF?
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If you want to see a great example of what restored London brick looks like compared to ones stained by years of polution then take a look at the building sandwiched between the new Borough market jct overbridge and the original. It was restored last year and all the original brick completely cleaned except for the side which was too close to the original line for the contractor to work on.

Any up to date photos of that for those of us who don't visit Southwark very often.

 

[swt_passenger]

Where can we access the PDF?

I posted it a couple of pages back, but here you are:

http://www.infrarail.com/_downloads/presentations/IF14_Thameslink.pdf

 

[QueensCurve]

I posted it a couple of pages back, but here you are:

http://www.infrarail.com/_downloads/presentations/IF14_Thameslink.pdf

Many thanks/diolch yn fawr.

 

[swt_passenger]

Another recent aerial view has appeared on NR's twitter feed:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CtcHb5SWgAA_r_T.jpg

I was just wondering how the three tracks on the furthest left will normally be used by Southern services in the finalised layout. As far as I can work out they'll all normally be up lines, with parallel non-conflicting moves available off both the Up Sussex Slow and UP Sussex Fast onto the righthand 2 of the 3.

Presumably there'll be reversible signalling to allow various odd moves during perturbation, or during planned engineering work, but ignoring that for a moment, what else can they usefully use a third line for? Queueing ECS into London Bridge maybe?

 

[Barn]

I still don't quite understand how Thameslink services get onto the fast (middle) lines through New Cross Gate.

Do the up and down Thameslink lines both have to cross over the down slow line?

 

[swt_passenger]

I still don't quite understand how Thameslink services get onto the fast (middle) lines through New Cross Gate.

Do the up and down Thameslink lines both have to cross over the down slow line?

The Thameslink lines come straight down the middle, off that new flyover/diveunder, (the bit where the light blue waterproofing is visible) and end up in line with the fast line central pair through New Cross gate.

The down line from London Bridge (Southern low level) comes under the dive under, (it's the left of the two tracks that are visible in the picture above), and is named the Down Sussex Slow and will have a 'straight ahead' route onto the down slow line through New Cross Gate. Trains from London Bridge low level heading for the down Sussex Fast will cross over from slow to fast on the approach to New Cross Gate.

I've attached an edited extract from the Thameslink presentation pdf, (page 83), hope they don't mind.

 

[najaB]

I still don't quite understand how Thameslink services get onto the fast (middle) lines through New Cross Gate.

Take a look at page 41 of the .PDF linked earlier.

Edit: Also on page 47.

 

[Barn]

Thank you both.

 

[QueensCurve]

Another recent aerial view has appeared on NR's twitter feed:



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CtcHb5SWgAA_r_T.jpg

I was just wondering how the three tracks on the furthest left will normally be used by Southern services in the finalised layout. As far as I can work out they'll all normally be up lines, with parallel non-conflicting moves available off both the Up Sussex Slow and UP Sussex Fast onto the righthand 2 of the 3.

Presumably there'll be reversible signalling to allow various odd moves during perturbation, or during planned engineering work, but ignoring that for a moment, what else can they usefully use a third line for? Queueing ECS into London Bridge maybe?

They use the flyover in the centre of the picture.

The term "divunder" is arguably misleading. It is only a diveunder in so far as the other tracks are being lowered to get under the flyover.

The 3rd line is paird with a 4th that goes under the diveunder to make a burrowing junction with the Thameslink lines.

 

[swt_passenger]

They use the flyover in the centre of the picture.

The term "divunder" is arguably misleading. It is only a diveunder in so far as the other tracks are being lowered to get under the flyover.

The 3rd line is paird with a 4th that goes under the diveunder to make a burrowing junction with the Thameslink lines.

I think you misinterpreted my question. I'm asking about the 3 parallel up lines well to the left of the flyover box that are in use by Southern services now, with the third line temporarily in use by down trains. If you'd read my earlier posts I'm already familiar with the idea of the down Sussex slow coming under the diveunder box, as I explained in reply to Barn earlier, and as shown in the drawing I posted...


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Balfour Beatty new track construction machine (NTC) has been in use on the Down Sussex Slow:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ct2q2FmWgAA7Gfp.jpg:large

 

[hwl]

I think you misinterpreted my question. I'm asking about the 3 parallel up lines well to the left of the flyover box that are in use by Southern services now, with the third line temporarily in use by down trains. If you'd read my earlier posts I'm already familiar with the idea of the down Sussex slow coming under the diveunder box, as I explained in reply to Barn earlier, and as shown in the drawing I posted...


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Balfour Beatty new track construction machine (NTC) has been in use on the Down Sussex Slow:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ct2q2FmWgAA7Gfp.jpg:large

In normal use just the righthand most one used in the Up direction which then avoids conflicts with SLL services at South Bermondsey Jn, usefully it is called the "Up Sussex Slow".
The Up terminating services from the slow and fast lines merge on to the 3rd track just out of shot to the left of the photo.
The Down services from P10-15 all via the down sussex slow unless something had gone wrong...

The 2 on left are ideal ECS waiting spots.

 

[physics34]

Being pedantic but that is the Sussex Reversible not the Up Sussex Slow ??????

 

[swt_passenger]

In normal use just the righthand most one used in the Up direction which then avoids conflicts with SLL services at South Bermondsey Jn, usefully it is called the "Up Sussex Slow".
The Up terminating services from the slow and fast lines merge on to the 3rd track just out of shot to the left of the photo.
The Down services from P10-15 all via the down sussex slow unless something had gone wrong...

The 2 on left are ideal ECS waiting spots.

Thanks, that's just about what I expected. Of course the extract from the pdf I edited earlier in post#97 doesn't suggest there is a significant length of the three track section, because it very much compresses the distances.

What I think will be useful would be that if Southern services leave New Cross Gate on both up fast and up slow at the same time, i.e. if one or other is running late, they can still be signalled onto separate non-conflicting routes towards London Bridge low level, so the Southern service leaving the up fast should not ever have to wait there, delaying a following Thameslink service towards the core. Which "SN" service is allowed to proceed first towards London Bridge can be sorted out a few signals along, IYSWIM.

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Being pedantic but that is the Sussex Reversible not the Up Sussex Slow ��

Perhaps the name used in today's stage of the overall layout (as shown in the current Sectional Appendix) is not the intended long term name, the track diagrams in the 2014 presentation do refer to it as Up Sussex Slow, and show it with only an up direction of flow arrow. The central track of three becomes the Bermondsey Reversible, (shown with the usual bi-di arrows) and the left hand track of three the Up Bermondsey Spur.

Don't take that as a contradiction of your post though, as it is also possible that plans have changed and additional reversible options have since been added.

 

[hwl]

Being pedantic but that is the Sussex Reversible not the Up Sussex Slow ��

For the time being but not after 2nd Jan 2018 when it will be the up sussex slow I was being even more pedantic!
The question was about the final routing hence why I gave the final name.
Only the middle track will be reversible post 2018.
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What I think will be useful would be that if Southern services leave New Cross Gate on both up fast and up slow at the same time, i.e. if one or other is running late, they can still be signalled onto separate non-conflicting routes towards London Bridge low level, so the Southern service leaving the up fast should not ever have to wait there, delaying a following Thameslink service towards the core. Which "SN" service is allowed to proceed first towards London Bridge can be sorted out a few signals along, IYSWIM.

The fasts will always need priority to get them out of the way of Thameslinks. The slows can wait/crawl between New Cross Gate and Bricklayers arms Jn with the wait adjacent to the Up Sussex loop which serves the same purpose today in the temporary layout. This gets the slows out of the way of a following Overground service and if required a second queueing slow service (or ECS for the evening peak so it isn't in the platforms for as long) can be put in the Up Sussex loop.
The other stacking alternatives will cause issues with SLL services.

The final main routes through the area are mostly all 60mph through Bricklayers with just the Up & Down Fast - slow crossovers at 50mph. (40mph round the bend at South Bermondsey Jn on the Up sussex Slow).

 

[swt_passenger]

The fasts will always need priority to get them out of the way of Thameslinks. The slows can wait/crawl between New Cross Gate and Bricklayers arms Jn with the wait adjacent to the Up Sussex loop which serves the same purpose today in the temporary layout. This gets the slows out of the way of a following Overground service and if required a second queueing slow service (or ECS for the evening peak so it isn't in the platforms for as long) can be put in the Up Sussex loop.
The other stacking alternatives will cause issues with SLL services.

Looks as though I'm overthinking this whole subject then. From what you are saying they'd probably have ample flexibility even without all three tracks being discussed. So it probably boils down to them already existing so they might as well stay...

 

[carriageline]

For the time being but not after 2nd Jan 2018 when it will be the up sussex slow I was being even more pedantic!

The question was about the final routing hence why I gave the final name.

Only the middle track will be reversible post 2018.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The fasts will always need priority to get them out of the way of Thameslinks. The slows can wait/crawl between New Cross Gate and Bricklayers arms Jn with the wait adjacent to the Up Sussex loop which serves the same purpose today in the temporary layout. This gets the slows out of the way of a following Overground service and if required a second queueing slow service (or ECS for the evening peak so it isn't in the platforms for as long) can be put in the Up Sussex loop.

The other stacking alternatives will cause issues with SLL services.



The final main routes through the area are mostly all 60mph through Bricklayers with just the Up & Down Fast - slow crossovers at 50mph. (40mph round the bend at South Bermondsey Jn on the Up sussex Slow).

Funny that! The signalling layouts for the final workstation screen views show the left hand line as Up Bermondsey Spur, Middle being the Bermondsey Rev and the right hand the Sussex Reversible! (Unless I'm in the wrong place!)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[hwl]

Funny that! The signalling layouts for the final workstation screen views show the left hand line as Up Bermondsey Spur, Middle being the Bermondsey Rev and the right hand the Sussex Reversible! (Unless I'm in the wrong place!)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'll check what version I have later but it was a 2015 dated one for the final layout
Remaining reversible for when stuff goes wrong on the Down Sussex Slow would be useful.
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Looks as though I'm overthinking this whole subject then. From what you are saying they'd probably have ample flexibility even without all three tracks being discussed. So it probably boils down to them already existing so they might as well stay...

Indeed already there and needed for the time being. Also helps during engineering work and disruption due to failures near by.
London Bridge should be a lot more reliable from 27th December for the terminating services though.

 

[physics34]

I'll check what version I have later but it was a 2015 dated one for the final layout
Remaining reversible for when stuff goes wrong on the Down Sussex Slow would be useful.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Indeed already there and needed for the time being. Also helps during engineering work and disruption due to failures near by.
London Bridge should be a lot more reliable from 27th December for the terminating services though.

yep as far as im aware the new signalling that was installed for the january 2015 "opening" is staying as is, therefore, yes, the Sussex reversible will be used when there are issues with the new down sussex slow.
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Anyone have an offical date for the opening of the new down slow line under the diveunder?

Progress has been stepped up lately and it looks like (as of last Friday) a set of points at new Cross gate, the conductor rail and the signal work are all that is needed to complete the work. Looks like it could be finished in a few days!

 

[hwl]

yep as far as im aware the new signalling that was installed for the january 2015 "opening" is staying as is, therefore, yes, the Sussex reversible will be used when there are issues with the new down sussex slow.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyone have an offical date for the opening of the new down slow line under the diveunder?

Progress has been stepped up lately and it looks like (as of last Friday) a set of points at new Cross gate, the conductor rail and the signal work are all that is needed to complete the work. Looks like it could be finished in a few days!

Just before 0500 on 27th December was the last I heard. (Signalling mods on Xmas and Boxing Day)

 

[physics34]

Just before 0500 on 27th December was the last I heard. (Signalling mods on Xmas and Boxing Day)

thats a shame its so long off. it looks nearly done now!

 

[neilm]

thats a shame its so long off. it looks nearly done now!

I noticed the progress this morning as well but I don't think the problem is the new cross gate end but the London bridge/spa road end where I guess they need to wait for the south eastern train tracks to be released I guess?

 

[physics34]

I noticed the progress this morning as well but I don't think the problem is the new cross gate end but the London bridge/spa road end where I guess they need to wait for the south eastern train tracks to be released I guess?

the line is connected at the spa road end as it will be when it is all finished but the surrounding area on the southeastern lines isnt complete as you say....

 

[carriageline]

Just before 0500 on 27th December was the last I heard. (Signalling mods on Xmas and Boxing Day)

It won't be "officially open". AIUI It gets commissioned, but there will be no signalled routes onto the dive under.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[swt_passenger]

It won't be "officially open". AIUI It gets commissioned, but there will be no signalled routes onto the dive under.

Hasn't it been mentioned a few times (usually by Bald Rick in the other London Bridge discussion threads) that the Down Sussex Slow opens to traffic at the end of this year, and does go through the dive under. This is a bit earlier than originally planned.

So it will be partially, or 25% open.

Going back to the above discussion above about whether it will be the Up Sussex Slow or Sussex Reversible, I now see that for relevant services in January realtimetrains shows the line designation SRV for up trains, as well as SL for down trains...

 

[physics34]

Hasn't it been mentioned a few times (usually by Bald Rick in the other London Bridge discussion threads) that the Down Sussex Slow opens to traffic at the end of this year, and does go through the dive under. This is a bit earlier than originally planned.

So it will be partially, or 25% open.

Going back to the above discussion above about whether it will be the Up Sussex Slow or Sussex Reversible, I now see that for relevant services in January realtimetrains shows the line designation SRV for up trains, as well as SL for down trains...

Well that pretty much confirms it.

I'm assuming all London Bridge to xxx (via New Cross gate will be signalled via the down sussex slow during normal working. Capacity should allow that....

...and I notice over the weekend that the new points from the down sussex slow to the down fast have been installed just under the London Overground Bridge before New Cross Gate. On diagrams I've seen I think they will be 50mph points If I remember rightly and will be frequently used by Uckfield, fast Cat and Tatts etc etc after emerging from the diveunder.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hasn't it been mentioned a few times (usually by Bald Rick in the other London Bridge discussion threads) that the Down Sussex Slow opens to traffic at the end of this year, and does go through the dive under. This is a bit earlier than originally planned.

So it will be partially, or 25% open.

Going back to the above discussion above about whether it will be the Up Sussex Slow or Sussex Reversible, I now see that for relevant services in January realtimetrains shows the line designation SRV for up trains, as well as SL for down trains...

I had to check the timetable as well; most down trains use the Down Slow from January. However in the week between Christmas and New Year there is a special timetable in force, and trains seem to be using the Sussex Reversible. This might be 'to be in the safe side' to prove the timetable works in case the line is not available or some drivers don't sign it in the first week.

 

[carriageline]

Hasn't it been mentioned a few times (usually by Bald Rick in the other London Bridge discussion threads) that the Down Sussex Slow opens to traffic at the end of this year, and does go through the dive under. This is a bit earlier than originally planned.

So it will be partially, or 25% open.

Going back to the above discussion above about whether it will be the Up Sussex Slow or Sussex Reversible, I now see that for relevant services in January realtimetrains shows the line designation SRV for up trains, as well as SL for down trains...

Sorry yes!! I was talking about the down fast/up fast.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[IanKR]

http://londonist.com/2016/10/video-bermondsey-dive-under

We get a visit into the Bermondsey Dive Under, London's newest piece of railway, which will cut delays into and out of London Bridge station when it's fully open in 2018.
How that will work is explained in this video.
We also visit Southwark Park station, an abandoned railway station which closed in 1915, and was rediscovered last year.

 

[physics34]

The "new" Down Slow Line is now connected at the Spa Road end and the conductor rail is now installed along with the signal at Bricklayers Arms to signal trains to the Fast Line has been switched on.

First trains along the line can't be far away.