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'Big man' vs Sam Main incident (final decision: no charges for either)

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ushawk

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For the police, would it only be the BTP turning up first or would the "normal" police turn up to deal with it first, then hand it over to BTP.

Do penalty fares exist on the route this happened on ?
 
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scotsman

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For the police, would it only be the BTP turning up first or would the "normal" police turn up to deal with it first, then hand it over to BTP.

Do penalty fares exist on the route this happened on ?


It would be BTP that would be called to attend.

This was ScotRail, ScotRail does not operate a Penalty Fare scheme but does operate a buy before you board scheme - however many ticket machines will only take cards, meaning tickets can be bought with cash onboard - some Conductors are fairly willing to sell any ticket onboard, regardless of payment method
 

michael769

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however many ticket machines will only take cards, meaning tickets can be bought with cash onboard

As far as I am aware they are all card only now. There is never any problem buying on board if you join at an unmanned station. And few guards bother even with manned stations.
 

scotsman

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Could you summarise for me/us?

I'll post a link when it comes online, but suffice to say the two hacks invited on had little grasp of the law, let alone railway laws. One went for the view that the move was good, and he should be applauded and another said it was a dangerous way for things do go. Textbook stuff.
 

the sniper

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For the police, would it only be the BTP turning up first or would the "normal" police turn up to deal with it first, then hand it over to BTP.

The BTP would be called but the BTP control room would probably get the locals going there too, as the nearest BTP stations (by my reckoning) are 20 miles from the station where this incident occurred. If the locals get there first, it'd normally be handed over to BTP when possible.
 

boing_uk

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I doubt there would be enough evidence to convict a charge of common assault. Clearly the pillocks behaviour was provocative, in that it was causing distress to other passengers in that they were being delayed and also the fact the pillock was using loud and abusive behaviour and language.

The assistance provided by "the big man" could be deemed as appropriate in order to quell the situation. Removing said person from the situation requires physical contact if they are refusing to move and continuing to be a disturbance to other passengers.

Said pillock could also have gone quietly but chose to escalate the matter by using reciprocal and disproportionate physical contact, which again required an escalation of the response from the big man, which was not - from the video at least - grossly disproportionate to the situation in which they found themselves in.

If he had gone on to the platform and kicked his head in, that would have been disproportionate and would have been an assault. Merely using physical force to prevent re-boarding of the train isn't really and I would think (hope) that the PF's office will also see it that way, given the reaction of the public who witnessed the matter.

The prat got what he deserved and big man should be thanked for his services to the public.
 

ushawk

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I dont think a debate about the "big man" being done for assault is needed as we can clearly see that the idiot is boasting about it. If it was different though, i suspect it wouldnt be in the public interest for the "big man" to be charged.
 

Jonny

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I don't think the behaviour in the video should be encouraged, however I don't think it should be discouraged either.

What if, the next time, it is a paying passenger who gets manhandled off for "nothing" - that is a dangerous precedent! Edit: "private security" and such like are often a law to themselves and often make up "the law" as they go along. What may seem to be good on the surface is actually quite dangerous at many levels!
 
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ralphchadkirk

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What if, the next time, it is a paying passenger who gets manhandled off for "nothing" - that is a dangerous precedent! Edit: "private security" and such like are often a law to themselves and often make up "the law" as they go along. What may seem to be good on the surface is actually quite dangerous at many levels!

Well, exactly, hence why I said it shouldn't be encouraged (not to mention the personal safety aspect); you don't want passengers throwing people off trains for listening to music in the quiet carriage for example! However, in this case it worked, and it worked well.
 

yorkie

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What if, the next time, it is a paying passenger who gets manhandled off for "nothing"
You can come up with whatever alternative scenarios you like, but at the end of the day a swearing disrespectful chav was thrown off a train. Good! The chavs usually win, but sometimes they don't, and I for one celebrate that.

that is a dangerous precedent! Edit: "private security" and such like are often a law to themselves and often make up "the law" as they go along. What may seem to be good on the surface is actually quite dangerous at many levels!
The only "precedent" this sets is that sometimes the chav doesn't win. Well, that's happened before, but it's not very common, and it doesn't get captured on video that often either. It would be good if it did set a "precedent" and if everyone stood up against such chavs, but I can't see it somehow.

Also chavs frequently go round in groups - not so easy to avoid them getting their way then.
 

Dolive22

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This is not an area I have studied, but I'm uncomfortable with the suggestion that the conditions for 'agency' were fulfilled. If you have relevant authorities to cite, I will be very grateful if you could let me know what they are.

I haven't studied it yet either. I'm afraid that part was based on the times when I've been engaging bouncers. I did have a bit of a doubt about whether he was authorised to engage someone else.
 

Oliver

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I think he means a moral duty, not a legal duty.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who understands the concept of moral duty.

It's quite clear who was in the right and who was in the wrong in this instance, and it's disappointing that so many posts burying themselves with hypothetical legal details.

We all know that the law is an ass, and most of us know the difference between right and wrong when we see it. It's a shame that many choose to hide behind the law as an excuse for not doing the right thing.
 

michael769

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AFAIK, it's only ticket machines at unmanned stations that are card only,

The Scotrail machines at Waverley are all card only. There are a few cash ones in the East Coast travel centre though. But they are not Scotrail units.

The ones at Bathgate which is now manned are also card only. Admittedly that's a small sample though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-16143909

An investigation has been launched after a fare-dodger was hauled off a train by a passenger who stepped in to help the conductor.

The incident on the Edinburgh to Perth train was filmed and has received more than 300,000 hits on YouTube.

...............

"We are investigating the incident, which appears to show a person travelling without a valid ticket, refusing to pay for the journey, and swearing at a staff member in full view of customers."

A British Transport Police spokesman, said: "We are aware of the YouTube video and our inquiries are ongoing.

"British Transport Police did not receive a complaint from anyone on the train at the time the incident is believed to have taken place."
 

Tim R-T-C

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Like the fact that the quote on the BBC site only concerns the action of the fare dodger and not the "bouncer". Finally someone getting their priorities right in this sort of situation.
 

Dolive22

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It's going to be on the Radio 1 news at 12.45. If you want to listen it's streamed from their website.
 

Mojo

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This is going to be discussed on Jeremy Vine this afternoon on Radio 2.
 

chris89

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The Scotrail machines at Waverley are all card only. There are a few cash ones in the East Coast travel centre though. But they are not Scotrail units.

The ones at Bathgate which is now manned are also card only. Admittedly that's a small sample though.

Unless thats changed in the past two weeks, still most the Ticket Machines at Waverly still accept coins ( in front of the gates/ next to boots/ WH Smiths)

All other machines though are card only, As the ones at Armadale are like that, so pay on the train with cash now.

Back to topic. Most likely the 'bouncer' will get charged for assualt, and the kid get some form of compenastion sadly from Scotrail.

Chris
 

amcluesent

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With our bampot 'justice' system, looks like it'll be compo for the scrote and Xmas dinner on remand for the 'big man'. This country is washed up.
 
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