Big Stations with no Ticket Barriers

[IanXC]

Isn't there a disused footbridge that could be borught back into use for non rail people ?

There is indeed! Its been in use in the not too distant past too, so it can't be in that bad a state.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Both stations where gatelines are to be installed.

With regard to Didcot, what will happen to non-rail users who wish to access the Railway Centre then? AFAIK the only access is via the subway at the railway station...

 

[tbtc]

Isn't there a disused footbridge that could be borught back into use for non rail people ?

Not disused - it's still open at both ends, I've used it plenty of times.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/6172599905/

However it's not DDA compliant (steps at both ends), it's certainly not inviting, it's heavily grafittied, I wouldn't want to use it at night (no lighting).

It would cost a few quid to bring up to a decent standard, but it'd be a lot cheaper than building a new bridge.

As for the other points - the station bridge isn't a right of way, the EMT proposals (AIUI) allowed tram passengers to use the station bridge, since the PTE allow free tram travel to all pensioners this means pensioners can access the bridge too.

 

[Liam]

I'd suggest that this is because of the low numbers of trains stopping there

• Hourly to Aberdeen
• Hourly to Glasgow (with some extras)
• Hourly to Edinburgh (a fairly recent service, used to be just bi-hourly)
• Bi-hourly to Inverness

...so, whilst Perth is a physically "large" station, there's not a huge number of trains using it (lots of two platform stations have significantly more departures in an hour). Just a thought.

There are sometimes manual checks at the main concourse. The problem is that you can just walk in through the car park...

 

[sheff1]

Also, why are people so against ticket barriers?

Not against barriers as such, but definitely against them in the current form.

Why ? For starters:

- barriers reject valid tickets - not occasionally, but frequently. So then you have to get someone to let you through, which can be easier said than done. Some barrier staff seem to have very little (any?) understanding of ticketing and treat you almost as a fare evader because the machine has rejected the ticket and therefore 'it is not valid'

- barriers retain tickets which are valid for continuation of your journey, so you have the hassle of getting someone to retrieve it for you.

- barriers do not accept many types of ticket - rovers, rangers, PTE tickets etc.

Now if we had barriers which were programmed properly and which were manned by people who actually understood UK rail ticket conditions, that would be completely different.

Strangely, in days gone by all large stations had manual entry/exit checks by people in ticket booths who did understand which tickets were valid or otherwise. Even at smaller stations the ticket clerk would meet incoming trains and check the tickets of those alighting. This worked well but was done away with on the grounds of 'progress' and staff cuts.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Leeds sell me platform tickets for 20p, well they did, now i catch the train down when picking up girlfriend from burley park so ive stopped needing one.

At newcastle she just asks for access to platform and they never have any problems...

 

[WCML]

Barnes (BNS)?

 

[mirodo]

Not disused - it's still open at both ends, I've used it plenty of times.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/6172599905/

However it's not DDA compliant (steps at both ends), it's certainly not inviting, it's heavily grafittied, I wouldn't want to use it at night (no lighting).

It would cost a few quid to bring up to a decent standard, but it'd be a lot cheaper than building a new bridge.

As for the other points - the station bridge isn't a right of way, the EMT proposals (AIUI) allowed tram passengers to use the station bridge, since the PTE allow free tram travel to all pensioners this means pensioners can access the bridge too.

So what's the extimated cost of a new bridge? The DfT have offered £3m towards the cost of a new one - would this cover it?

 

[tsr]

So what's the extimated cost of a new bridge? The DfT have offered £3m towards the cost of a new one - would this cover it?

That sounds about the right amount of cash for a DDA-compliant bridge. (Back when I did my A-Levels, I designed a couple of bridges, so I had to do a bit of research into this sort of thing, plus I know a number of surveyors and architects who would probably agree with this sum.)

Strangely, in days gone by all large stations had manual entry/exit checks by people in ticket booths who did understand which tickets were valid or otherwise. Even at smaller stations the ticket clerk would meet incoming trains and check the tickets of those alighting. This worked well but was done away with on the grounds of 'progress' and staff cuts.

They still do this at one of my local stations in the rush hour. A back entrance with no barriers (literally a doorway in a wall) is well-used by commuters, but recently it has been used by fare-evaders who think they can sneak through the crowds. There is now a booth which is manned and a couple of members of staff manually check every ticket. I have seen them catch people who think they can board their train without a ticket (this is not allowed in this area), which is good.

Leeds sell me platform tickets for 20p, well they did, now i catch the train down when picking up girlfriend from burley park so ive stopped needing one.

At newcastle she just asks for access to platform and they never have any problems...

GoVia TOCs seem to sell them for anything up to £1, which seems a little bit steep, so I just have a word with the gateline assistants, most of whom are good at spotting genuine cases of people only needing to access the platform.

 

[londonbridge]

No barriers at Sunderland.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

They would have to be complient with T&WM tickets though, and I'm not sure what difficulties this may bring up.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Coventry must have actually had its barriers removed at some point—it's quite obvious that the layout of the station was designed with barriers in mind; everyone has to pass through a 10-metre wide gate to get between the concourse and the platforms. I know BR went through a phase in the late 1980s of removing barriers, the so-called "open stations" policy, and Coventry was last remodelled in the 1960s.

I don't think it was just the Central/WMPTE funding issue regarding Coventry's barriers - they were non-standard Ascom ones, and I think lack of spares was an issue!

 

[cuccir]

Leeds sell me platform tickets for 20p, well they did, now i catch the train down when picking up girlfriend from burley park so ive stopped needing one.

At newcastle she just asks for access to platform and they never have any problems...

Newcastle seem very relaxed on letting people through, particularly as the now barriered (?) ATMs have long been the only ones in that part of town (with the exception of the often-empty one at the Metro level). There is now one outside the barriers so whether they will change their policy or not I don't know.

Looking purely at passenger numbers, the top five with some unbarriered sections are (I think): Euston, Birmingham New Street, Manchester Piccadilly, Edinburgh Waverley and Liverpool Lime Street.

Of those, New Street, Piccadilly and Lime Street are completely without barriers.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Of those, New Street, Piccadilly and Lime Street are completely without barriers.

Lime St however does have traditional gates like Leeds used to have, however I am not sure if they are operational. I was told Northern were looking at automatic gating Lime St after they had finished with Leeds etc, but this hasn't happened.

 

[button_boxer]

As mentioned in the Sheffield Star every month or so! Also, the Supertram stop at Sheffield station is also the stop for Sheffield Hallam University which is on the opposite site of the National Rail tracks, so anyone wanting to get to Hallam from the tram couldn't get through any barriers.

At Derby the station footbridge is a thoroughfare between Pride Park/Derby College and the city centre. College students and anyone who works in Pride Park can apply to Stagecoach for a smartcard that operates the barriers to let them cross the bridge. You have to exit one gateline within ten minutes of entering the other one, and they say they monitor this and will cancel cards that are abused. Did EMT propose a similar scheme for Sheffield?

Though I guess it wouldn't work as well in the Sheffield case as it's harder to see where they would set the boundaries of who is and who isn't allowed to apply for a card - they'd have to allow at least anyone who is a student at Hallam Uni, anyone who works within (say) half a mile of the station and anyone who lives in the Park Hill/City Road area, but how far out do you draw the line...

 

[TSR :D]

I dare to say Brum Snow Hill? Technically there are barriers but it's useless as you can bypass it pretty easily, all platforms are accessible.

 

[LexyBoy]

There's always a way around station barriers, whether it's using an open exit, "doughnutting" or getting off at a nearby ungated station. Plus they don't stop people getting the wrong train on an Advance, or stopping short.

In the long run the solution has to be putting barriers on the trains rather than the stations. Straight away, every station becomes barriered.

 

[Lampshade]

Lime St however does have traditional gates like Leeds used to have, however I am not sure if they are operational. I was told Northern were looking at automatic gating Lime St after they had finished with Leeds etc, but this hasn't happened.

Whenever I've been there they've been "operational" in that there has been staff in the booths, but not bothering to check tickets. The cynic in me would think they're deliberately not bothering so fare evasion "rises", justifying the case for installing automatic gates.

 

[Flying Snail]

Not disused - it's still open at both ends, I've used it plenty of times.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/6172599905/

However it's not DDA compliant (steps at both ends), it's certainly not inviting, it's heavily grafittied, I wouldn't want to use it at night (no lighting).

It would cost a few quid to bring up to a decent standard, but it'd be a lot cheaper than building a new bridge.

As for the other points - the station bridge isn't a right of way, the EMT proposals (AIUI) allowed tram passengers to use the station bridge, since the PTE allow free tram travel to all pensioners this means pensioners can access the bridge too.

What about the second bridge within the station complex? I know it only connects the 2 islands with the concourse and would need a link to the tram stop built, still a much smaller prospect than building a bridge spanning the whole station.

 

[TEW]

At Derby the station footbridge is a thoroughfare between Pride Park/Derby College and the city centre. College students and anyone who works in Pride Park can apply to Stagecoach for a smartcard that operates the barriers to let them cross the bridge. You have to exit one gateline within ten minutes of entering the other one, and they say they monitor this and will cancel cards that are abused. Did EMT propose a similar scheme for Sheffield?

Though I guess it wouldn't work as well in the Sheffield case as it's harder to see where they would set the boundaries of who is and who isn't allowed to apply for a card - they'd have to allow at least anyone who is a student at Hallam Uni, anyone who works within (say) half a mile of the station and anyone who lives in the Park Hill/City Road area, but how far out do you draw the line...

At Guildford the footbridge across the station is a right of way and anybody wishing to use the footbridge can ask the gateline staff for a bridge pass, a piece of paper which is surrendered at the other side. There are signs and the entrances to all platforms warning that you can't pass the point with a bridge pass. They are differently coloured for different time periods as well I believe.

 

[button_boxer]

What about the second bridge within the station complex? I know it only connects the 2 islands with the concourse and would need a link to the tram stop built, still a much smaller prospect than building a bridge spanning the whole station.

The one that used to be the main (only) bridge before the new one was built. I remember you used to have to go onto platform 1, up and over the footbridge to 6, then along to the far north end of 6 and up stairs to another bridge to get to the tram.

The stairs to the old bridge were taken out shortly after the new one opened, but the lifts appear to still be working, albeit only for goods these days. However it looks like quite a job to connect that bridge with the tram in a way that doesn't require stairs, as the tram stop is several feet higher than bridge level but less than a whole extra storey. The new bridge manages this by having the lift doors parallel to the platforms with exit to the two levels on opposite sides of the lift, but the lifts to the old bridge are at right angles to this.

 

[Lampshade]

The thing people miss about Sheffield is the bridge was built by Network Rail/MML in partnership with Sheffield City Council to provide an accessible route across the station for *everyone*, not just rail passengers. The people of Sheffield have paid for that bridge via their council tax, why should they pay for a new bridge through their other taxes, because it would be taxpayer's money that funds the new one?

 

[David Goddard]

As for why I loathe and despite ticket barriers:
1. I think station platforms should be open to the public, mostly so I can go and take photos.
2. I resent having my used ticket taken off me! I've got a nice stack of rail travel tickets now and I'm rather fond of it. I'd like to be able to continue adding to it.

Perhaps not the greatest of reasons, but that's why I object to the wretched things!

My sentiments precisely, in addition to those I have posted elsewhere

 

[Yew]

In the long run the solution has to be putting barriers on the trains rather than the stations. Straight away, every station becomes barriered.

Imagine the dewell times for packed commuter trains, could probably add hours to some journies in the peak

 

[Urban Gateline]

Imagine the dewell times for packed commuter trains, could probably add hours to some journies in the peak

Not to mention who will actually keep an eye that the barriers are being used properly and that nobody gets stuck in them, not a good idea from a H&S perspective!

 

[tsr]

Not to mention who will actually keep an eye that the barriers are being used properly and that nobody gets stuck in them, not a good idea from a H&S perspective!

Y'know, like those big sliding things called automatic doors that most non-heritage trains in Great Britain have now? Those have caused enough safety headaches, most of which are normally counterbalanced by proper procedures and equipment. Surely some of the lessons learnt from these headaches could be applied to any barriers added to trains? The only reason I don't advocate such barriers is from a congestion point of view. Also, you could still get people riding without tickets in the vestibule (limited in space though it may become).

 

[dvboy]

I'm sure i remember a VT or ATW leaflet advertising barriers going up at WVH, idk if they went up or not. This was in about the early 2000s

I don't think WVH has ever had them. There certainly isn't really enough room, and it gets pretty crowded easily when VT decide do a ticket check.

I dare to say Brum Snow Hill? Technically there are barriers but it's useless as you can bypass it pretty easily, all platforms are accessible.

Often I've seen a member of staff between the tram platform and platform 3, making sure people aren't bypassing the barriers that way.

 

[LexyBoy]

Imagine the dewell times for packed commuter trains, could probably add hours to some journies in the peak

Smartcards are the answer. Anyway, look at a busy terminus like Kings Cross when a packed train arrives, the barriers don't cause any delays at all.

On-board barriers would be just as safe as existing barriers, so no need for those pesky station staff, and as everyone would have a ticket no need for guards either!

I reckon the savings would be around £3.5bn/year.

*readies green pen and looks up DfT's address*

 

[flox]

Can anyone tell me whether there are barriers at both stations in Wigan?

 

[scrapy]

No automatic barriers but regular (daily at Wallgate) RPI checks at both stations.