Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I agree it has gone slightly OT, it started with the thought that Blackpool South-Kirkham should be an inexpensive infill once Kirkham - Preston is electrified.

I that suppose the term "inexpensive" depends upon your sense of financial understanding.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I went mid morning to St Annes two weeks ago and the Pacer unit was very badly overloaded and made worse by the large number of suitcases on the floor. And we had to wait quite a long time outside Kirkham waiting for a train to leave the branch. No train turned up for the afternoon train back. I got the bus back to Preston. A bad railway experience.
There should at least be passing loops. And what is a "dynamic" loop?
Jeff

Blackpool South branch is occupied 50 minutes in the hour.
This gives very little flexibility in the timetable.
Often the South train from Preston has to wait several minutes at the junction for the previous South train to leave the branch.
Because of this a Dynamic loop - a long loop, stretching approximately from Lytham to St Annes stations would cut down/ eliminate waiting time for the trains passing, and keep a more flexibility in the timetable.
Advantages for South Fylde Line - the major Attractions, Huge populations, major employment, easy access, parking, bus hub.
Disadvantages - lack of trains!!
Blackpool Council seem to be far from pro South Station.

 

[Bevan Price]

If anything ever comes of the Blackpool tramway / North Station link won't that have an effect on the viability of the line from Blackpool South to St Annes?

Combined with through ticketing, I can see many visitors preferring a fast direct train to Blackpool North, changing onto a frequent tram service, over a change at Preston onto whatever long-in-the-tooth DMU stock is being used on the Lytham line.

For locals, I agree that there is a lot of suppressed demand from the south Fylde towns; we're talking affluent people who would use a (non-Pacer) train but wouldn't be seen dead on a bus. People whose most convenient shopping destination is Preston, not Blackpool. Business owners and a smattering of showbiz types, never mind all the rich pensioners. People here wouldn't catch a direct train to London from Blackpool, they all drive to Preston and park there for the day. I also have my doubts about how many people from this area go beyond Preston, a shuttle service might be more effective.

I think the problem is that the Blackpool South services would be more useful if they went to Manchester rather than Colne**. It would also be useful if the line was extended from South to a location close to the former Blackpool Central. Apart from one removed bridge, and part of a car park, there is nothing (apart from money) to prevent such an extension.

In retrospect, the Blackpool councillors of the 1960s must be regarded as silly (or worse) in supporting the closure of Blackpool Central.

(** No disrespect to the citizens of East Lancashire, but an all-stations crawl from Colne to Blackpool is not going to attract lots of regular passengers.)

 

[Whistler40145]

I agree that the South Fylde line would be better served with a service to Manchester, would this be to Manchester Victoria or Manchester Airport?

Would you then start the Colne service at Preston or just a Blackburn to Colne shuttle, with a connection off the Blackpool North to York?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I that suppose the term "inexpensive" depends upon your sense of financial understanding.

Everything is relative.

 

[Bevan Price]

I agree that the South Fylde line would be better served with a service to Manchester, would this be to Manchester Victoria or Manchester Airport?

Would you then start the Colne service at Preston or just a Blackburn to Colne shuttle, with a connection off the Blackpool North to York?

Ideally, one would survey the preferred travelling needs of passengers, and the Todmorden curve reopening may change travel patterns. But my initial thoughts could be something like:

1. Colne - Rose Grove, then Accrington / Blackburn (fast), then stations to Bolton & Manchester Vic.

2, Manchester Vic. - Todmorden - Burnley Manchester Road - Rose Grove & stations to Blackburn

3. Clithroe - Blackburn - Preston (all stations)

 

[PR1Berske]

Ideally, one would survey the preferred travelling needs of passengers, and the Todmorden curve reopening may change travel patterns. But my initial thoughts could be something like:

1. Colne - Rose Grove, then Accrington / Blackburn (fast), then stations to Bolton & Manchester Vic.

2, Manchester Vic. - Todmorden - Burnley Manchester Road - Rose Grove & stations to Blackburn

3. Clithroe - Blackburn - Preston (all stations)

I remember Preston-Clitheroe services many moons ago, they seemed to vanish without trace.

 

[lancastrian]

I agree that the South Fylde line would be better served with a service to Manchester, would this be to Manchester Victoria or Manchester Airport?

Would you then start the Colne service at Preston or just a Blackburn to Colne shuttle, with a connection off the Blackpool North to York?

I would suggest that services alternate between both Victoria and Manchester Airport. At 2 tph, would give 1 train per hour to all the Manchester Stations. BUT unless at least a dynamic loop from before Lytham to after St. Annes or full redoubling is done, non of it would be possible.

I know that some have suggested a new 4 platform terminus near the site of the old Central Station, but I feel there is more chance of a 2 platform station, with hopefully the line being redoubled from South Station, including a second platform at South.

The Colne services could start at Preston, although in the past, traditionally the Colne services used to start from Blackpool North.

In response to another comment that I read about Blackpool being anti South, well there was a suggestion by them some years ago, that South should be closed and the trains terminating at the Pleasure Beach Station. I am glad to say that this didn't happen. Blackpool has been anti rail since before 1964 and their ridiculous choice to see Central rather than North closed. They saw all that wonderful space that could be used as a big car park.

The crazy thing is that without the Railways Blackpool would be just a few mud huts around a filthy small bay, 'a black pool', from which its name came. It was the railways that enabled Blackpool to become the major tourist attraction that it became and if you actually look at it carefully, Blackpool's decline can be traced back to that crazy decision to close Central Station.

Just my personal view, but as my mothers family came from Lytham, Blackpool was never a destination of choice for me.

 

[Bald Rick]

Blackpool's decline can be traced back to that crazy decision to close Central Station.

Which in a remarkable coincidence, happened at around the time that motoring came to the masses and cheap package holidays abroad became available.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Out of curiosity - why does the Blackpool South service go to Colne ?

The logic would surely be Preston for connections to the rest of the world , with Colne lined to the nearest large employing city (Manchester)

Pinning Blackpools relative decline to rail rationalisation in the 1960's seems simplistic .....

 

[Eagle]

Out of curiosity - why does the Blackpool South service go to Colne ?

Nowhere else for it to go really.

 

[lancastrian]

Out of curiosity - why does the Blackpool South service go to Colne ?

The logic would surely be Preston for connections to the rest of the world , with Colne lined to the nearest large employing city (Manchester)

Pinning Blackpools relative decline to rail rationalisation in the 1960's seems simplistic .....

Because they diverted the Manchester services to North when they rationalized (read mutilated) the Kirkham to Blackpool South route. The services along the Fylde Coast line always went to Manchester Victoria. In fact they had non stop services all stations to Lytham, then Salford & Victoria in the morning and the reverse in the evening.

The reason the South Services were diverted to Colne is to my mind two fold, first previously the North services went to Colne, so what they did was swap destinations.

Secondly, what it did was to connect two services they were trying to run down, both ending with long single track sidings. South to Kirkham & Gannow Junction to Colne. Possibly on the assumption that it didn't matter if the services got delayed, who would care. The major towns in the rest of East Lancashire; Burnley, Accrington & Blackburn were being well served by the Blackpool to York services.

Yet another example of those running the railways from their 'Ivory Towers' in London, not really caring about services in the north of England. I really hope that the devolution of Rail services in the North of England get agreed soon.

 

[Darren R]

Out of curiosity - why does the Blackpool South service go to Colne ?

The logic would surely be Preston for connections to the rest of the world , with Colne lined to the nearest large employing city (Manchester)

Pinning Blackpools relative decline to rail rationalisation in the 1960's seems simplistic .....

Well if you don't know, ChiefPlanner, who does....?

The Colne trains used to mostly terminate at Preston, with some going to Blackpool North. The Blackpool South trains ran as (mostly) a shuttle service to/from Kirkham & Wesham. In 1987 the South trains got a bit of a boost with hourly, clock-face trains to Preston, at which time they were tagged on to the Colne trains where they've remained ever since. Operationally it's probably a bit of a 'mare for all concerned, and they seem to run late more often than on time. Despite that NetworkRail keep looking at splitting the service at Preston and always decide against it on the grounds that having to change trains at Preston would be a net "disbenefit" to passengers.

There have been the odd Colne - Man Vic through trains over the years (historiaclly they always went via Accrington and Bury 'til it closed). None of them lasted long becasue the journey via Blackburn took too long. It's quicker by bus.

Originally Posted by PR1Berske
I remember Preston-Clitheroe services many moons ago, they seemed to vanish without trace.

Sorry to diasagree with PR1Berske (judging by another thread you'll be well used to it by now though! ), but your memory is playing tricks on you. Apart from a single M - F daily service from Clitheroe to Morecambe which ran for a while, Clitheroe trains have always run through to Manchester Victoria - even historically before the line originally closed in the 50s (not sure how far back you're talking about.)

(Apart from the summer Sundays-only DalesRail from Carlisle to Preston/Blackpool - just remembered them!)

 

[Eagle]

(Apart from the summer Sundays-only DalesRail from Carlisle to Preston/Blackpool - just remembered them!)

It's all year round now (although from November to May it's only Blackpool to Hellifield).

 

[Darren R]

On the topic of Blackpool South - hypothetically how much would it cost to wire? Is there a 'ball-park' figure for how much it costs per mile to electrify? Presumably if it were to be done it would be cheaper to do it as part of the present wiring to North station, rather than deciding ten years down the line that it needs doing. The branch is slightly more than 12 miles - could it be done without requiring extra electrical equipment? If a single track, 12 mile branch could be wired and operated without it needing any more equipment than just the supply wires for the motive power, surely that would be relatively cheap to do as part of a larger project to which it is connected? (The electrical engineers will have to forgive my ignorance, but it is many years since my grade C in O-level Physics!)

 

[PR1Berske]

Well if you don't know, ChiefPlanner, who does....?

The Colne trains used to mostly terminate at Preston, with some going to Blackpool North. The Blackpool South trains ran as (mostly) a shuttle service to/from Kirkham & Wesham. In 1987 the South trains got a bit of a boost with hourly, clock-face trains to Preston, at which time they were tagged on to the Colne trains where they've remained ever since. Operationally it's probably a bit of a 'mare for all concerned, and they seem to run late more often than on time. Despite that NetworkRail keep looking at splitting the service at Preston and always decide against it on the grounds that having to change trains at Preston would be a net "disbenefit" to passengers.

There have been the odd Colne - Man Vic through trains over the years (historiaclly they always went via Accrington and Bury 'til it closed). None of them lasted long becasue the journey via Blackburn took too long. It's quicker by bus.



Sorry to diasagree with PR1Berske (judging by another thread you'll be well used to it by now though! ), but your memory is playing tricks on you. Apart from a single M - F daily service from Clitheroe to Morecambe which ran for a while, Clitheroe trains have always run through to Manchester Victoria - even historically before the line originally closed in the 50s (not sure how far back you're talking about.)

(Apart from the summer Sundays-only DalesRail from Carlisle to Preston/Blackpool - just remembered them!)

I am grateful. False memory syndrome in my early 30s, oh dear!

Were I in control of things (and don't all scream at once), I'd look into something similar to what prompted by message; Blackpool South to Preston with occasional Blackburn/Clitheroe extensions, Colne to Blackburn with occasional Victoria extensions.

Things will be all mixed up with Todmorden, so just maybe NetwRail will re-examine the Blackpool South issue....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On the topic of Blackpool South - hypothetically how much would it cost to wire?

Windermere is apparently estimated at £16m for a very similar 10 miles with no loops and fed from the existing WCML power supply.
But the overall cost will depend on whether any other infrastructure changes are needed, such as bridge replacements.
I would guess the South line costs would be rather more because of the number of bridges involved.
The signalling is run from Kirkham which is all being replaced anyway for the North scheme.
So £20m might cover it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Pardon me if I have missed out on a certain matter, but even if the current line to Blackpool South was electrified, how much would the service pattern would be constrained by the existing single track in situ ? What construction and extra signalling costs would need to be incurred by the dynamic loop referred to earlier in the thread ?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Finally, would electrification see any increased service patterns compared to the status quo ?

 

[joeykins82]

The rule of thumb for installing OHLE is £1m per single track kilometre.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Sorry I know its off topic but it was mentioned. Where in Blackpool was Blackpool Central?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry I know its off topic but it was mentioned. Where in Blackpool was Blackpool Central?

If you know Blackpool, it is where the Coral Island amusement complex now is situated.

 

[edwin_m]

Blackpool South electrification may be a bit cheaper because the single track could be moved into the middle of any arched bridges to give extra clearance without rebuilding or lowering the track. Windermere was (I think!) always single track.

The Colne-Blackpool suffers from long single lines at both ends. Both Rose Grove to Rose Grove and Kirkham to Kirkham are just under an hour so the train comes off the single line just before the next one goes onto it, and if a train is late it will probably delay the following one. This leads to very efficient use of the units but also to poor performance.

Another consequence is that if the passing place at the Blackpool end was moved from Kirkham to somewhere around Lytham (or indeed anywhere else) the change in timings would also require a passing place between Rose Grove and Colne, and would lead to more units and crews being needed to maintain an hourly service. If this was decided on then it would reduce the efficiency of a Blackpool-Colne service and make it more likely for it to be split or routed elsewhere. It would also facilitate an extension back to Central, which is impossible with the present service pattern as it would take the Kirkham-Kirkham time over the hour.

The layout at Preston means that all Fylde and East Lancs trains effectively have to use a single island, so terminating trains there is not attractive as they have to sit in a through platform. I haven't checked timings, but if the Blackpool South line was electrified and took some of the Manchester services, I wonder if Preston-Colne could interwork with Preston-Ormskirk to improve efficiency and reduce platform occupation? There is also an unused platform on the goods line west of Preston station which could be re-opened but might require some signalling changes.

 

[Whistler40145]

If you use the unused Platform at Preston, then the East Lancs services would still have to cross both Fast lines. IMHO, demolish the Parcels platform, remove the through goods lines & build a new island platform, which would free up space on platforms 1 & 2 for terminating trains.

With regards to the Blackpool South line, would it gain more passengers if the line has a direct service to Manchester? Is it because the service goes to Colne that Passengers prefer to travel from Blackpool North?

IMHO, Network Rail could have rushed through improvements to the South Fylde line by installing a dynamic loop & OHLE installed ready for use during the Blackpool North to Kirkham blockade, unless Kirkham to Preston is also closed?

 

[PR1Berske]

We're getting into fantasy territory here, which isn't always a bad thing

Run Preston-Blackburn/Clitheroe/Colne off the bay platforms at far SOUTH of 3/4 alongside the Ormskirks and occasional Hazel Groves, but that leaves (and demands) a Preston-Bpool South shuttle without much spare stock to hand.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If you know Blackpool, it is where the Coral Island amusement complex now is situated.

I don't but google has helped. Did Yeadon way used to be a line into Blackpool Central? And was it a loop? Did it link to Blackpool North or were there several lines into Blackpool?

 

[Whistler40145]

Hi YorkshireBear, the Marton route was rebuilt as Yeadon Way & part of the M55 was also part of this route,it branched off the Blackpool North line to the north of Kirkham, it then met the South Fylde line at Blackpool South & Blackpool Central was the terminus.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Hi YorkshireBear, the Marton route was rebuilt as Yeadon Way & part of the M55 was also part of this route,it branched off the Blackpool North line to the north of Kirkham, it then met the South Fylde line at Blackpool South & Blackpool Central was the terminus.

Thanks Sorted. will leave my diversion now.

 

[edwin_m]

If you use the unused Platform at Preston, then the East Lancs services would still have to cross both Fast lines. IMHO, demolish the Parcels platform, remove the through goods lines & build a new island platform, which would free up space on platforms 1 & 2 for terminating trains.

With regards to the Blackpool South line, would it gain more passengers if the line has a direct service to Manchester? Is it because the service goes to Colne that Passengers prefer to travel from Blackpool North?

Surely with either an new island or the existing parcels platform East Lancs trains wouldn't touch the fast lines, as they would continue to bridge over the main line at Farington?

I think it would need more than diversion to Manchester to increase the usage of the Blackpool South line. Blackpool North has a more frequent service to Manchester using better quality units and electrification will increase this gap even more.

 

[snowball]

Blackpool South electrification may be a bit cheaper because the single track could be moved into the middle of any arched bridges to give extra clearance without rebuilding or lowering the track. Windermere was (I think!) always single track.

The Windermere branch was double track, possibly right up to the time the WCML Weaver Junction-Glasgow was electrified. You can see it on old-maps.co.uk.

 

[edwin_m]

Windermere was double track, possibly right up to the time the WCML Weaver Junction-Glasgow was electrified.

Thanks for this information. I learn something new every day!