Bob Crow - Rolling stock is "clapped out"

Status
Not open for further replies.

David

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2005
Messages
5,103
Location
Scunthorpe
Yes, a misleading title, but I think it's something worth discussing.

Network rail have attempted to impose a last minute lifting of current breakdown safety procedures to deal with the surge in train failures, a move that RMT has pledged to fight tooth and nail.

RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said;

"The truth is now out. Every unit of unreliable and unsafe rolling stock will be hauled out of the sidings and sheds to try and cope with the Olympics demand as transport chiefs hit the panic button.

"RMT will not agree to any suspension or dilution of safety procedures as a consequence of this desperate measure and we will fight to protect passenger and staff safety. "

http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=160520

Now, forgive my ignorence, but what unreliable and unsafe rolling stock have we got tucked away in sidings and sheds? I know of the 507s (or is it 508s?) at Telford and the 317s that have recently gone off lease, but what else is there? Also, I thought the extra capacity was going to be gained from tightening of diagrams and more intensive use of rolling stock

I don't intend for this to be a "union bashing" thread, as I am supportive of unions in general, but to all RMT members on here, I feel it is time you elected a new general secretary.

The folks behind Railway Eye are not impressed either, with the final comment that sums up my opinion of Bob Crow ....

Ever get the impression that the RMT is happiest when it's ****ing down someone's leg?

http://railwayeye.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/rmt-welcomes-increased-olympic-rail.html
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Schnellzug

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2011
Messages
2,926
Location
Evercreech Junction
Oh, Bob. you really don't do your cause any good at all. What silly scaremongering. It sounds as if what they're talking about is allowing minor defects to be passed by to allow stock to remain in service that otherwise wouldn't be, but really Bob, do you yourself really believe that they'd overlook anything that was safety critical?
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
13,020
Oh, Bob. you really don't do your cause any good at all. What silly scaremongering. It sounds as if what they're talking about is allowing minor defects to be passed by to allow stock to remain in service that otherwise wouldn't be, but really Bob, do you yourself really believe that they'd overlook anything that was safety critical?

I'm pretty sure they would.....

For a certain definition of "safety critical"
 

Schnellzug

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2011
Messages
2,926
Location
Evercreech Junction
I'm pretty sure they would.....

For a certain definition of "safety critical"

Well, 'safety critical', thanks to all this Government interference and Euro regulations and all that, can mean things like electronic information things not working or things like that, can't it, but I think most people would probably rather they had a Train than it be cancelled in the interests of politically correct Euro-regulations. I'm talking about things like brakes, AWS, TPWS working, and being sure that wheels aren't likely to fall off.
 

Robbies

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
2,095
Location
East Sussex
Well, 'safety critical', thanks to all this Government interference and Euro regulations and all that, can mean things like electronic information things not working or things like that, can't it, but I think most people would probably rather they had a Train than it be cancelled in the interests of politically correct Euro-regulations. I'm talking about things like brakes, AWS, TPWS working, and being sure that wheels aren't likely to fall off.

I am with you on Safety Critical being brakes, TPWS, AWS etc..... But if Bob Crow safety critical includes electronic information signs, then er...let's go back to when you where a lad Mr Crow where was the electronic information signs then and didn't the trains work okay then as well?

A week last Saturday I was on a Class 455 from London Waterloo to Reading, which I presume stepped into the breach either due to the normal class 458's having done a few too many miles or maintenance. This train did not have it's Electronic Information screens working for the route that it was being run on, does this mean that it was a safety Critical train even though all other functions of it were working safely?
 
Last edited:

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
16,598
Location
Yorkshire, Yorkshire, Yorkshire
If there were plans to round up all those unwanted Mk2 coaches sat rusting in sidings and that HST powercab that had a tree growing in it a few years ago* then I could understand Bob's panic.

There are genuine concerns about safety, but the fact that we've had only one railway fatality in *years* suggests that these are being dealt with. If services are being run during the Olympics with doors hanging off the sides and windows missing then feel free to correct me, but this is daft pointscoring.

(* - IIRC it went to GC who overhaulled it - may be an urban myth?)
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
5,876
Location
Somewhere
Forgive me, but can anyone point me in the direction of what the RMT are actually on about? What safety procedures are Network Rail supposedly wanting to do away with...neither link gave any such details.

Also, where is it stated that electronic displays are being classed as "safety critical"?
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
10,612
Location
Macclesfield
(* - IIRC it went to GC who overhaulled it - may be an urban myth?)
No, that one went to Crosscountry: I'll have to check the numbers to be certain, but I believe that it is now 43301, formerly 43101. No production HST power cars have been scrapped except those that have been involved in serious accidents - One each in Ladbroke Grove and Southall IIRC.
 

Schnellzug

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2011
Messages
2,926
Location
Evercreech Junction
No, that one went to Crosscountry: I'll have to check the numbers to be certain, but I believe that it is now 43301, formerly 43101. No production HST power cars have been scrapped except those that have been involved in serious accidents - One each in Ladbroke Grove and Southall IIRC.

And 43019 from Ufton Nervet, sadly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Forgive me, but can anyone point me in the direction of what the RMT are actually on about? What safety procedures are Network Rail supposedly wanting to do away with...neither link gave any such details.

Also, where is it stated that electronic displays are being classed as "safety critical"?

I don't know if they are or not officially, but I have heard that things like that and PA systems being out of order are cause for taking trains out of service.
 

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,491
The Rule Book (Module TW5) details what actions are required by various defects. However...
Network rail have attempted to impose a last minute lifting of current breakdown safety procedures to deal with the surge in train failures, a move that RMT has pledged to fight tooth and nail
...sounds, to me, like the RMT are claiming that NR are attempting to amend the procedures to clear a failed train from the line (which, incidentally, Module M2 deals with, along with the relevant signalling regs). I can imagine there'll be tremendous pressure to get the job moving again if one does sit down somewhere inconvenient. The rest of the RMT statement contradicts that though, and to be honest sounds like nothing more than uninformed nonsense.

Reference to a "safety critical train" in one of the posts above puzzles me somewhat too!
 

Robbies

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
2,095
Location
East Sussex
The Rule Book (Module TW5) details what actions are required by various defects. However...

...sounds, to me, like the RMT are claiming that NR are attempting to amend the procedures to clear a failed train from the line (which, incidentally, Module M2 deals with, along with the relevant signalling regs). I can imagine there'll be tremendous pressure to get the job moving again if one does sit down somewhere inconvenient. The rest of the RMT statement contradicts that though, and to be honest sounds like nothing more than uninformed nonsense.

Reference to a "safety critical train" in one of the posts above puzzles me somewhat too!

I was asking waht is meant by a Safety Critical Train, is that the train being used in a route cannot display the stations being stopped at on the digital displays within the carriages or that a guard speaking over the intercom to the passengers? If that is the case then those trains are run everyday whether the Olympics takes palce or not when the trains run. It is like a month or more back from Wokingham to Guildford I was on a Class 165 that had an internal automatic door that was not working properly and had to be moved by hand so that you can get pass. I would have said that was more critical than the station LED display within the train or for that matter the Intercom.
 

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,491
Ah, I see. Further up the thread, some equipment has been described as "safety-critical", presumably to mean that the train must be taken out of service (or operate under certain restrictions - see the Rule Book link I posted) if any of that kit fails. Generally, the term "safety-critical" means, as might be obvious, equipment or duties that are an essential part of the safe operation of the railway.

A failure of the public address system appears in the list in Module TW5 (sensibly - as it might need to be used to give instructions in an emergency), but there's no mention of action being required in the case of defective doors, internal or external. There are instructions elsewhere in the Rule Book though, certainly to cover defective external doors at least. Passenger information displays, tea-making facilities (as important as they are!) and other similar features don't appear - the train can continue to run safely without them.
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
5,876
Location
Somewhere
It would be nice if the RMT posted what procedures Network Rail wanted to change because as you say, it sounds like uninformed nonsense.
 

Smudger105e

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2010
Messages
1,012
Location
N 52° 53.492 W 001° 15.493
Safety Critical does not mean any system which can be critical to safety. Electronic Passenger displays are not safety critical.

Being an item or issue that requires a vehicle being removed from service does not necessarily make the issue a safety critical one.

Safety critical systems or activities are those which can "impart risk onto Network Rail infrastructure".
 

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,491
Indeed, I don't think the term "safety critical" belongs in this thread; I just wanted to try to explain - in simple terms - what it generally refers to, and hopefully by extension how it's not particularly relevant here.
 

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949
Every unit of unreliable and unsafe rolling stock will be hauled out of the sidings and sheds to try and cope with the Olympics demand as transport chiefs hit the panic button.

*Every unit*

Is that a guarantee?

Will we really see Mk1 or older carriages being hauled by steam locos with expired boiler certificates hurtling down the mainlines?
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
16,598
Location
Yorkshire, Yorkshire, Yorkshire
*Every unit*

Is that a guarantee?

Will we really see Mk1 or older carriages being hauled by steam locos with expired boiler certificates hurtling down the mainlines?

I think most enthusiasts would vote for that :lol:

I'm going to be disappointed if the Olympics don't see various coaches that were converted into private restaurants brought back into service, like a Dad's Army on rails
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No, that one went to Crosscountry: I'll have to check the numbers to be certain, but I believe that it is now 43301, formerly 43101

Cheers for confirming - as ever I will happily take your memory over mine :lol:

Maybe there's one of those "seesaw" wagons that were in various Laurel & Hardy films (or mineshaft railways on Scooby Doo) that can be pressed into service?
 

Robbies

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
2,095
Location
East Sussex
I think most enthusiasts would vote for that :lol:

I'm going to be disappointed if the Olympics don't see various coaches that were converted into private restaurants brought back into service, like a Dad's Army on rails
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Cheers for confirming - as ever I will happily take your memory over mine :lol:

Maybe there's one of those "seesaw" wagons that were in various Laurel & Hardy films (or mineshaft railways on Scooby Doo) that can be pressed into service?

Then we can ay like Jonesy 'Don't panic Mr Crow'......;)
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
10,612
Location
Macclesfield
Maybe there's one of those "seesaw" wagons that were in various Laurel & Hardy films (or mineshaft railways on Scooby Doo) that can be pressed into service?
I'd quite like to have a go on one of those. I don't think I'd choose one for my commute every day though :D
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
6,684
Does a quote from Mr Crow ever enhance a discussion of a railway issue?
 
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
696
Not really bearing in mind old bonehead is just a mouthpiece for the figures in the shadows behind him - Pat Sikorski being the main one.
 

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949
Does a quote from Mr Crow ever enhance a discussion of a railway issue?

Sometimes. This time he is the source of the discussion though...

Within 30 minutes of me posting the comment about steam locos, a friend of mine who works as the "press officer" for a heritage line fielded a call from a journalist...

They wanted to know about the safety risks of using steam locomotives and old carriages on services into London during the olympics...
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
6,684
Sometimes. This time he is the source of the discussion though...

Within 30 minutes of me posting the comment about steam locos, a friend of mine who works as the "press officer" for a heritage line fielded a call from a journalist...

They wanted to know about the safety risks of using steam locomotives and old carriages on services into London during the olympics...

Well, since steam locos and old carriages are allowed elsewhere then presumably there are no safety risks.

How about top-and-tailing Llandudno - B Ffestiniog with a couple of tank engines - the released 150 could work vice a 350 somewhere, which could strengthen Northampton - Euston.

:D
 

colchesterken

Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
646
MMMM they could get the 306 out of EARM and run non stop Colchester to Stratford
park up at Thornton sidings
oh if it could happen !!!
 

12CSVT

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2010
Messages
2,612
I don't know if they are or not officially, but I have heard that things like that and PA systems being out of order are cause for taking trains out of service.

A working PA system is a safety requirement - if there is a need to evacuate a train for example.
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,482
From what I have read on the ASLEF site these safety procedures are more to do with protection arrangements for failed trains.

The issue is more to do with why they can just suspend rules and regs for the olympics-if we can operate safely over the summer with out the rules for protecting failed trains then can we not do away with the rules all the time? That seems to be the issue.

It is a last minute throwing away of rule book sections for the duration and I can fully see why the unions are against it unless it is a proper amendmant which will be in place for the future.
 

David

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2005
Messages
5,103
Location
Scunthorpe
Cheers for posting that, as I (and I suspect, quite a few others on here) did wonder what Bob Crow was waffling on about this time ....

Anyway, if he thinks current rolling stock is "clapped out", I'm glad he wasn't the GS of the RMT on the mid to late 80s when there was a lot of tired units, carriages and locos in daily use ....
 

Schnellzug

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2011
Messages
2,926
Location
Evercreech Junction
So what Bob was quoted as saying was actually nothing at all to do with the actual topic? So is there going to be an internal inquiry at the RMT Union as to how this could have have happened? Someone has made a significant error here, it would seem. Either someone has told outright lies, or someone has got their information seriously confused. I trust that procedures will be put in place to ascertain how this error was made, and what can be done in future to ensure that the RMT Union puts out correct information in future, and avoids scaring the public, as might have happened if this error had not been picked up on in time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top