BR Intercity Network

[hexagon789]

I was comparing 1970 with 1980; according to those two maps:

1970 Glasgow 5hr 54 and in 1980 5hr 08

1970 Edinburgh 5hr 45 and in 1980 4hr 37

The difference in the timings between various places is interesting to see. Edinburgh has improved a fair bit with Glasgow now lagging behind compared to the 1970 map...

Glasgow led from extension of electrification in 1974 reducing journey times to 5 hours-5hrs 07 for most services with Edinburgh being 5h30 at best in the same period.

HSTs took it to 4h37 best time London-Edinburgh in one swoop, shaving 53 mins off the time despite only 100mph being permitted north of Edinburgh then.

London-Glasgow has never again been quicker since the HSTs were introduced to the ECML, there was even a period where it was quicker to go to Glasgow via Edinburgh up the ECML than direct up the WCML after the InterCity 225s were introduced.

 

[Ianno87]

I was comparing 1970 with 1980; according to those two maps:

1970 Glasgow 5hr 54 and in 1980 5hr 08

1970 Edinburgh 5hr 45 and in 1980 4hr 37

Ah, with you now - thanks

 

[Springs Branch]

Inter City at one time described just the service level on the trains, and XC services would often be below that level, as well as not primarily serving London......

I remember a comment about the Inter-City Overground map appearing in Modern Railways in the late 1970s, possibly from Alan Williams, raising an eyebrow that the map included Brighton, Portsmouth and Dover as part of the Inter-City network.

The point was made that, by this time, the majority of Inter-City services north & west of London were operated by Mk2 a/c and Mk3 stock, whereas the Southern Region's "Inter City" routes had slam-door EMUs, which to a casual punter appeared no different to bog standard outer suburban trains of that era. On the SR, InterCity branding certainly didn't appear on the side of coaches, nor was it mentioned in any local publicity.
Maybe Inter-City on the SR just meant there was a chance you might find a buffet car on your train?


There was a corresponding Overground by night poster produced to promote Inter-City Sleepers.
Some interesting long-gone overnight destinations are shown: Barrow-in-Furness, Stranraer, Hartlepool, Paris and the good old Bristol - Glasgow/Edinburgh.

Source: https://collection.sciencemuseumgro...city-sleepers-overground-by-night-1974-poster
Copyright: The Board of Trustees of The Science Museum, London.
Reproduced under Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 (CC BY-NC-SA 4.0)

 

[65477]

Slightly later than the OP's question but by the mid 1980's when I started making at least two return trips a week on various Inter City services there was a diary sized timetable of IC services. The TT may have existed earlier unfortunately I never kept a copy.

 

[Mag_seven]

there was even a period where it was quicker to go to Glasgow via Edinburgh up the ECML than direct up the WCML after the InterCity 225s were introduced.

At that time it was even suggested that the ECML become the main Glasgow to London route with the traditional WCML being reduced in status north of Preston.

 

[hexagon789]

At that time it was even suggested that the ECML become the main Glasgow to London route with the traditional WCML being reduced in status north of Preston.

I seem to recall something about that yes. Wouldn't the WCML have also been downgraded to 100mph and the services north of Preston effectively becoming long-distance semi-fasts, something like that.

 

[Ianno87]

I seem to recall something about that yes. Wouldn't the WCML have also been downgraded to 100mph and the services north of Preston effectively becoming long-distance semi-fasts, something like that.

AIUI, the WCML 'Intercity' service would basically have terminated at Preston.

 

[hexagon789]

AIUI, the WCML 'Intercity' service would basically have terminated at Preston.

So just XC and Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool-Glasgow/Edinburgh would have provided Preston-Carlisle-Glasgow services?

 

[Mag_seven]

AIUI, the WCML 'Intercity' service would basically have terminated at Preston.

I'm sure the idea of singling substantial stretches north of Preston was even considered.

 

[hexagon789]

I'm sure the idea of singling substantial stretches north of Preston was even considered.

Ouch, and I thought singling bits of the GSW and the proposal to single the entire thing south of Barrhead at one point was bad enough.

 

[Taunton]

Ouch, and I thought singling bits of the GSW and the proposal to single the entire thing south of Barrhead at one point was bad enough.

The singling of major routes was brought about by some notably inept costing methods at BR HQ. Track and civils costs were not collected at a detailed level, just overall, and were then divided across routes on the basis of track miles. So for two places 100 miles apart, if it was double track they might get charged £10m, if singled then only charged £5m (and everyone else got charged a bit more as the pot was shared out). It didn't mean of course that there was much less work, as all the formation and earthworks on a route carried on regardless, and the rails, although there was now only one set of them, carried twice as much traffic as before. There were actually government grants, called something like "rationalisation grants", for doing the work required for the singling, and other simplification schemes.

 

[Ianno87]

So just XC and Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool-Glasgow/Edinburgh would have provided Preston-Carlisle-Glasgow services?

Yes. And possibly nothing like today's service frequency on those either.

 

[WesternLancer]

Slightly later than the OP's question but by the mid 1980's when I started making at least two return trips a week on various Inter City services there was a diary sized timetable of IC services. The TT may have existed earlier unfortunately I never kept a copy.

Yes, and this existed until or just after privatisation when the operators would not co-operate together to keep this useful item in publication. I also think I failed to keep a copy, even though I always had one each year. Unlike the NRT of course, they were free, so a useful thing to have. I too associate it with starting by or around the mid 80s.

This image from web must have been a late on edition

 

[YorksLad12]

I remember a comment about the Inter-City Overground map appearing in Modern Railways in the late 1970s, possibly from Alan Williams, raising an eyebrow that the map included Brighton, Portsmouth and Dover as part of the Inter-City network.

The point was made that, by this time, the majority of Inter-City services north & west of London were operated by Mk2 a/c and Mk3 stock, whereas the Southern Region's "Inter City" routes had slam-door EMUs, which to a casual punter appeared no different to bog standard outer suburban trains of that era. On the SR, InterCity branding certainly didn't appear on the side of coaches, nor was it mentioned in any local publicity.
Maybe Inter-City on the SR just meant there was a chance you might find a buffet car on your train?


There was a corresponding Overground by night poster produced to promote Inter-City Sleepers.
Some interesting long-gone overnight destinations are shown: Barrow-in-Furness, Stranraer, Hartlepool, Paris and the good old Bristol - Glasgow/Edinburgh.

Source: https://collection.sciencemuseumgro...city-sleepers-overground-by-night-1974-poster
Copyright: The Board of Trustees of The Science Museum, London.
Reproduced under Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 (CC BY-NC-SA 4.0)

Now there's a thought... convert the current 2330 London Kings Cross to Leeds service into a sleeper, and extend it to Aberdeen/Fort William via York, Newcastle and Edinburgh...

 

[Ianno87]

Now there's a thought... convert the current 2330 London Kings Cross to Leeds service into a sleeper, and extend it to Aberdeen/Fort William via York, Newcastle and Edinburgh...

It's probably more useful / popular as the late night post-theatre/pub train for ECML stations.

 

[philosopher]

I remember a comment about the Inter-City Overground map appearing in Modern Railways in the late 1970s, possibly from Alan Williams, raising an eyebrow that the map included Brighton, Portsmouth and Dover as part of the Inter-City network.

The point was made that, by this time, the majority of Inter-City services north & west of London were operated by Mk2 a/c and Mk3 stock, whereas the Southern Region's "Inter City" routes had slam-door EMUs, which to a casual punter appeared no different to bog standard outer suburban trains of that era. On the SR, InterCity branding certainly didn't appear on the side of coaches, nor was it mentioned in any local publicity.
Maybe Inter-City on the SR just meant there was a chance you might find a buffet car on your train?


There was a corresponding Overground by night poster produced to promote Inter-City Sleepers.
Some interesting long-gone overnight destinations are shown: Barrow-in-Furness, Stranraer, Hartlepool, Paris and the good old Bristol - Glasgow/Edinburgh.

Source: https://collection.sciencemuseumgro...city-sleepers-overground-by-night-1974-poster
Copyright: The Board of Trustees of The Science Museum, London.
Reproduced under Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 (CC BY-NC-SA 4.0)

I can’t imagine getting much sleep on a Euston to Manchester or Kings Cross to Leeds sleeper!

 

[Merle Haggard]

I can’t imagine getting much sleep on a Euston to Manchester or Kings Cross to Leeds sleeper!

From 1968-9 LM timetable; 01.00 Euston - Manchester, berths ready for occupation at 23.15, must be vacated by 08.00. 8 hours 45 minutes possible sleep. But, at intermediate calls, there was usually a railwayman walking down the platform whistling loudly and tapping his tea can against the panelling

 

[hexagon789]

The singling of major routes was brought about by some notably inept costing methods at BR HQ. Track and civils costs were not collected at a detailed level, just overall, and were then divided across routes on the basis of track miles. So for two places 100 miles apart, if it was double track they might get charged £10m, if singled then only charged £5m (and everyone else got charged a bit more as the pot was shared out). It didn't mean of course that there was much less work, as all the formation and earthworks on a route carried on regardless, and the rails, although there was now only one set of them, carried twice as much traffic as before. There were actually government grants, called something like "rationalisation grants", for doing the work required for the singling, and other simplification schemes.

I can see the financial incentive, but on major trunk routes it seems like such a fallacy. I suppose it's easier to say that with the hindsight of today's busier railways but still...

Yes. And possibly nothing like today's service frequency on those either.

Hmm, I think it was roughly two-hourly for most of the mid-1970s onwards on the Preston-Glasgow/Edinburgh non-Euston services.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Hmm, I think it was roughly two-hourly for most of the mid-1970s onwards on the Preston-Glasgow/Edinburgh non-Euston services.

That sounds about right, and Euston Glasgow was mainly every two hours with a couple of extras, plus as far as Carlisle a 'semi-fast' from Euston to Carlisle which picked up all the stops Crewe inclusive northwards as most Glasgow's were Preston and Carlisle only plus some calls at Watford or Motherwell, and the Birmingham and Man/Liv trains also tended to miss most of the intermediate calls. Probably at best two trains every three hours between Preston and Carlisle and mainly hourly north thereof.
I recall mentioning in another thread the paucity of the main line calls at Oxenholme in this period.

 

[randyrippley]

I seem to recall something about that yes. Wouldn't the WCML have also been downgraded to 100mph and the services north of Preston effectively becoming long-distance semi-fasts, something like that.

One plan mentioned in Modern Railways was to de-electrify north of Preston, with that becoming the terminus for Euston trains. Scotland would have been served by a diesel Manchester - Glasgow service................shades of TransPennine

 

[YorksLad12]

It's probably more useful / popular as the late night post-theatre/pub train for ECML stations.

I can’t imagine getting much sleep on a Euston to Manchester or Kings Cross to Leeds sleeper!

True on both counts!

Unless you could invent a 5-car bi-mode Class 806 sleeper set, hook it up to the relevant 80x, split at Leeds/Manchester and away you go, keeping the sleepers away from the late-night crowd. But that's getting well into the realms of speculative ideas!

 

[randyrippley]

I remember a comment about the Inter-City Overground map appearing in Modern Railways in the late 1970s, possibly from Alan Williams, raising an eyebrow that the map included Brighton, Portsmouth and Dover as part of the Inter-City network.

The point was made that, by this time, the majority of Inter-City services north & west of London were operated by Mk2 a/c and Mk3 stock, whereas the Southern Region's "Inter City" routes had slam-door EMUs, which to a casual punter appeared no different to bog standard outer suburban trains of that era. On the SR, InterCity branding certainly didn't appear on the side of coaches, nor was it mentioned in any local publicity.
Maybe Inter-City on the SR just meant there was a chance you might find a buffet car on your train?

Ironically, prior to NSE the Waterloo-Weymouth boat trains and Waterloo-Exeter carried Inter-City branding - and they're not on the map.

There was a theory that that map was simply the potentially profitable long distance routes the government felt worth keeping, the rest could go

 

[tbwbear]

I think the first inter city branding on coaches was on the MK2 sets out of Euston from 1966 wasn’t it ? Was it ever applied to any Mk1 sets ?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Burton-on-Trent did have an indirect service from London Paddington in 1989

So did every other station on the network

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I can’t imagine getting much sleep on a Euston to Manchester or Kings Cross to Leeds sleeper!

Bear in mind the last train from Euston to Manchester was 20.00 so if that was too early for you then you could get back to Manchester and detrain from the seated section around 04.00 - not much use if you were arriving for a 09.00 meeting or going home to somewhere a few miles out of the city - or stay in bed until a much more civilised hour which is what I did several times, and similar logic would apply for Kings X to Leeds with the last daytime train at 19.05.

In the up direction the last train from Manchester was 20.10 and next morning the first train didn't arrive in Euston until after 09.30, unthinkable today. which made the sleeper an option for some.

These sleepers were very useful in their time.

 

[tbtc]

The discussion on here does make me wonder what the BCR was for wiring the WCML north of Preston in the first place - given the relatively low frequency in BR days (and the "tidal" flow of services - few northbound services before lunchtime, few southbound ones in the afternoon - rather than the fairly balanced service were now have) plus the fact that many CrossCountry services continued to be run by diesels.

You've got maybe one hundred and fifty miles of double track from Preston to Cleghorn (where the Lanark line branches off), for often just one train every two hours - as the frequency was back then - that money could have wired the ECML to Leeds - seems surprising to me in hindsight that the did the WCML all the way.

There was a theory that that map was simply the potentially profitable long distance routes the government felt worth keeping, the rest could go

That's all that InterCity was, as far as I am concerned - a collection of profitable routes - a way of branding your flagship services - which is why it is such a strange combination of routes (e.g. an ordinary person might think that a Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - York - Durham - Newcastle train serves slightly more stations than a non-stop London - Gatwick service but the former wasn't "InterCity" and the 80mph Class 73 on the latter was "InterCity").

Even nowadays, some enthusiasts try to act like there's some proper distinction between an "InterCity" route and a "non-InterCIty" route, as if BR had some criteria for the level of service or the frequency or the top speed - whereas it was only ever a way of advertising the most lucrative routes to the Great British Public (which is why it was fine to have disparities between different InterCity services - e.g. some CrossCountry ones were run by 158s!)

I don't know about the idea of getting rid of any route that didn't qualify for InterCity status - there were a lot of routes around London that didn't get InterCity but were never in danger under the Serpell suggestions - but InterCity was certainly a good benchmark of the kind of lines that BR thought had a healthy future

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The discussion on here does make me wonder what the BCR was for wiring the WCML north of Preston in the first place - given the relatively low frequency in BR days (and the "tidal" flow of services - few northbound services before lunchtime, few southbound ones in the afternoon - rather than the fairly balanced service were now have) plus the fact that many CrossCountry services continued to be run by diesels.

I am sure there would have been a Scottish political element to it, plus Freightiner's went over to electric hauiage (often overnight using the loco off the daytime passenger trains). There was no diesel haulage of passenger trains north from Preston, that came much later with sectorisation and (mainly) HSTs (and 158s)..

 

[Taunton]

Hmm, I think it was roughly two-hourly for most of the mid-1970s onwards on the Preston-Glasgow/Edinburgh non-Euston services.

At that period there were about four a day to Birmingham (one extended to Plymouth), all I think split at Carstairs, and four/five in varying combinations to Liverpool/Manchester, some splitting at Carstairs, some doing so at Preston. They were all full length, maybe 10-11 coach trains, and also notable compared to today's TPE trains was how full they were. They were balanced through the day - you could get from Edinburgh to Liverpool in most hours in varying combinations.

Regarding how well used the line was, it was significantly more so at night, with sleepers, a notable number of parcels trains, Freightliners, and other freight of all combinations. I think there were more trains per hour over Shap between 00.01 and 06.00 than at any other time of day.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The discussion on here does make me wonder what the BCR was for wiring the WCML north of Preston in the first place -

Did they have their prospective new toy in mind, namely the APT? That was designed for the curving WCML rather than the straight ECML.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I think the first inter city branding on coaches was on the MK2 sets out of Euston from 1966 wasn’t it ? Was it ever applied to any Mk1 sets ?

I don’t think the Intercity branding was actually applied to any mk2 until the beginning of the 1970s tbh, regarding mk1s if memory serves correct the only ones were Intercity Sleeper and Intercity Motorail stock. Now
I’ll wait for someone to prove me wrong on this