Brexit matters

[najaB]

This must be one of the biggest cases of 'cutting your nose off to spite your face' in history.

I've no problem with people doing that, as long as they're honest about it. Unfortunately, very few pro-Brexit people are.

 

[Class 170101]

Not really. The Single Market is one of the core pillars of the EU, and is the one that Brexit supporters rail against most frequently. So it is a valid point that creation of the single market was largely driven by the UK.

They also rail against the four freedoms (well one of them) of Goods, Services, Capital and the most controversial People.

This last one is the one that has caused the most harm in people's eyes alongside sovereignty. The perception is that free movement of people has led to changes in the demographics od the population at too fast a rate and as such a too vast a change in the community in which people live - some consider it racism others that the UK is conservative with a small c and adapt to change slowly. Freedom of Movement also drives down wages (perceived or not) and the local population doesn't like that.

On the issue of sovereignty not exactly sure who votes for the EU Commission or its President but I am sure it wasn't us as electorate. This creates a gap between the people and the politicans and this isn't healthy for democracy.

 

[najaB]

They also rail against the four freedoms (well one of them) of Goods, Services, Capital and the most controversial People.

I didn't list them separately since they are the foundation of the single market, alongside the customs union.

On the issue of sovereignty not exactly sure who votes for the EU Commission or its President but I am sure it wasn't us as electorate.

We vote for both of them inasmuch as we vote for PM or for the Cabinet. We vote for MEPs and the Commission and the President are answerable to the EU Parliament, in the same way that we vote for our MP and the PM is the MP who commands the support of the largest number of MPs, and is ultimately answerable to the Commons.

 

[REVUpminster]

If only the president and commission came from those MEP's we voted for. I would relate them more to our high ranking civil service who are unelected.

 

[najaB]

If only the president and commission came from those MEP's we voted for. I would relate them more to our high ranking civil service who are unelected.

Can you explain to me, please, the actual practical difference between someone who is elected doing a job, and someone who is elected appointing someone to do the job?

 

[REVUpminster]

The EU parliament rubber stamps and they have not yet rubber stamped the Xmas eve agreement.

European Commission president – Ursula von der Leyen​

Term: December 2019 - October 2024

Appointed by: national leaders (heads of state or government of EU countries), with the approval of the European Parliament.

European Parliament president – David-Maria Sassoli​

Term: July 2019 - December 2021

Elected by: Members of the European Parliament

European Council president – Charles Michel​

Term: December 2019 - May 2022

Appointed by: national leaders (heads of state or government of EU countries).

Only Sassoli comes from the people and his most notable act was to on 19 December 2019 ask for the liberation of Oriol Junqueras, former vice president of Catalonia and recently elected MEP, who was imprisoned after the 2017 Spanish constitutional crisis. As a member of the European Parliament, Junqueras benefits from parliamentary immunity. Sassoli urged the Spanish authorities to comply with the European Parliament ruling. He's still serving 13 years.

 

[najaB]

The EU parliament rubber stamps...

Again, that is far from the truth of the matter. The EU Parliament instructs the EU Commission what legislation is required and set the Commission's agenda. The Parliament can also dismiss the Commission with a simple majority vote.

If only the president and commission came from those MEP's we voted for.

As you've made clear in your own post, while the Commission and Council aren't directly elected, they are indirectly elected as it's our elected heads of government/state that choose them.

 

[birchesgreen]

Its not exactly novel is it? Ministers of the Crown arn't directly elected to their roles either, indeed they don't have to be elected officials at all.

 

[Doppelganger]

Who voted for the Queen then?

 

[najaB]

Who voted for the Queen then?

Nobody, but not sure what that has to do with anything.

 

[Journeyman]

Nobody, but not sure what that has to do with anything.

Because of the constant whining of Brexiteers that EU leaders are unelected.

 

[najaB]

Because of the constant whining of Brexiteers that EU leaders are unelected.

Ah, okay. Gotcha.

 

[jon0844]

At the end of the day, if the UK had decided to protect its borders better (something it can't even do in a pandemic) and the BBC hadn't thought to show for almost two years of illegal immigrants going through Europe to try and get into the UK* (as we remember, Nigel Farage's Breaking Point poster made it quite clear who he was suggesting were going to 'overrun our country') then most people wouldn't have cared one bit about the EU.

I guess it was quite a good distraction to the state of our country through austerity, and what a great way to shift the blame onto those pesky foreigners...

* and succeeding in many cases because we're so bad at protecting our borders, as various TV documentaries have shown over the years.

 

[21C101]

You have an actual source for that or has Mystic Meg peed in your coffee?

Mystic 21C101 indeed has a source....

"The UK has been "vindicated" over its "brave" decision to offer vaccines doses up to three months apart, the World Health Organisation's special envoy on COVID-19 has said.

Dr David Nabarro told Sky News' Sophy Ridge On Sunday the move had provided the rest of the world with a "great lesson".


The UK went against the advice of the World Health Organisation (WHO) by choosing to offer a second jab between three and 12 weeks after the first dose."

COVID-19: UK 'vindicated' over 'brave' decision to delay second vaccine dose, WHO official says

Dr David Nabarro has thanked British scientists who "taught a great lesson for the rest of the world".

news.sky.com

 

[jon0844]

Dr Nabarro told Sky News: "The advice of the World Health Organisation on intervals between vaccine doses was based on what the manufacturers did in doing what we call the phase three trials of the vaccine and WHO and its committees really has to work on the basis of what manufacturers have told them - but isn't it wonderful that it has turned out, as a result of the UK's bravery frankly, that these extended intervals seems to be associated with greater protection."

He added: "So, yes, I think the UK's approach so far as been vindicated and yes, it has taught a great lesson for the rest of the world. Thank you, thank you British scientists."

While the vaccine might be safe if given 12 weeks apart, reading the bold text above has made me somewhat nauseous.

I wonder what the WHO think of our brave and bold consideration of mixing up the vaccines? Or maybe next week Boris will consider just giving the one jab and hoping that's 'good enough'. Will that be courageous?

I almost had to double check the URL was correct and it wasn't actually a spoof website.

 

[najaB]

While the vaccine might be safe if given 12 weeks apart, reading the bold text above has made me somewhat nauseous.

Agreed. They conducted an experiment on the general public (as a cost-saving measure) and it turned out to work. It could just as easily have turned out to be a huge mistake.

Though, to be fair, the question wasn't really one of safety as much as over efficacy.

 

[Doppelganger]

Ah, okay. Gotcha.

This

 

[nlogax]

Mystic 21C101 indeed has a source....

"The UK has been "vindicated" over its "brave" decision to offer vaccines doses up to three months apart, the World Health Organisation's special envoy on COVID-19 has said.

Dr David Nabarro told Sky News' Sophy Ridge On Sunday the move had provided the rest of the world with a "great lesson".


The UK went against the advice of the World Health Organisation (WHO) by choosing to offer a second jab between three and 12 weeks after the first dose."

COVID-19: UK 'vindicated' over 'brave' decision to delay second vaccine dose, WHO official says

Dr David Nabarro has thanked British scientists who "taught a great lesson for the rest of the world".

news.sky.com

Thanks. So when I originally asked that on Jan 31st you had nothing. Got it.

My flippancy aside, that article still doesn't change anything. Doses are still being administered as were. I'm sure we'll hear about it the moment that pivots.

Asked whether the WHO could change its advice, Dr Nabarro said the organisation's committee of experts is "meeting pretty often at the moment" and will "look again at the doses as a result of the UK's experience".

 

[eotw]

The EU Parliament instructs the EU Commission what legislation is required and set the Commission's agenda.

This is not strictly true.

The Council of Ministers set the Commission's agenda.

National governments would never want or let the President of the commission to be elected as this would give the President a democratic mandate. You could end up with a Nigel Farage or Ken Livingstone as President, elected on a protest vote with their own agenda completely at odds with the democratically elected governments of sovereign states.

The above is my main reason for not being a republican.

 

[najaB]

This is not strictly true.

The Council of Ministers set the Commission's agenda.

As I understand it the Commission takes its orders from both:

What does the Parliament do?​

The Parliament has 3 main roles:

Legislative​

• Passing EU laws, together with the Council of the EU, based on European Commission proposals
• Deciding on international agreements
• Deciding on enlargements
• Reviewing the Commission's work programme and asking it to propose legislation

European Parliament – roles and powers | European Union

The European Parliament is the EU’s law-making body that is directly elected by EU voters every 5 years. Find out more about its roles and responsibilities.

europa.eu

 

[eotw]

As I understand it the Commission takes its orders from both:

European Parliament – roles and powers | European Union

The European Parliament is the EU’s law-making body that is directly elected by EU voters every 5 years. Find out more about its roles and responsibilities.

europa.eu

I stand corrected.

 

[najaB]

So, apparently it's news to Give et al that the Northern Ireland protocol effectively places a border between GB and NI. Who would have thought it?

'Pandora's Box' opened over UK-EU vaccine row, says Gove

Michael Gove says post-Brexit trade rules between Britain and Northern Ireland are not working.

www.bbc.com

 

[Typhoon]

So, apparently it's news to Give et al that the Northern Ireland protocol effectively places a border between GB and NI. Who would have thought it?

'Pandora's Box' opened over UK-EU vaccine row, says Gove

Michael Gove says post-Brexit trade rules between Britain and Northern Ireland are not working.

www.bbc.com

I don't think I would ever associate the word 'give' with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster ('take', maybe, but you won't know that he has done so). He's a slippery character at the best of times, you think he has put forward a coherent argument, then five minutes later 'hold on' and you realise it was built on sand, but the interview is over and he is on his way. He's the Prince of Plausible.

From the article, either a degree at Oxford is not a guarantee of any level of common sense or the words of our Minister for the Cabinet Office are not worth a sou. This is the second time that this government has signed treaties with the EU, and decided, within months, that it didn't mean what they thought it did. I take more care over buying home insurance than they take over the future of the country. I think we ought to know how many ministers took out PPI.

Border between GB and NI - Maybe they ought to have listened to the words of the MP for Maidenhead (the Rt Hon Lady May) instead of stabbing her in the back. She knew!

 

[najaB]

I don't think I would ever associate the word 'give' with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster ('take', maybe, but you won't know that he has done so).

Haha... my phone autocorrect clearly wanted to protect me from he who should not be named.

 

[Typhoon]

Haha... my phone autocorrect clearly wanted to protect me from he who should not be named.

Ann Widdecombe once said there was 'something of the night' about Michael Howard. Did she ever meet Michael Gove?
[[pause to leave the room, turn round 3 times, spit, curse, clear up spit, knock on door, then post]]

 

[REVUpminster]

I went back 61 pages to page 1 started on 10 Nov 2020 and this is the second Brexit thread. So we had already left the EU.

This is like the old Japanese soldier fighting on thinking the war is still going on. I'll stick to the railway threads as this is a waste of effort.

 

[nlogax]

I went back 61 pages to page 1 started on 10 Nov 2020 and this is the second Brexit thread. So we had already left the EU.

In November 2020 we were still taking advantage of the transition period, so the true stupidity of leaving the EU was not yet evident to the multitudes who'd originally voted for it. Finally, here we are.

 

[Journeyman]

I went back 61 pages to page 1 started on 10 Nov 2020 and this is the second Brexit thread. So we had already left the EU.

This is like the old Japanese soldier fighting on thinking the war is still going on. I'll stick to the railway threads as this is a waste of effort.

What, because people point out that everything you've said is nonsense?

I accept we've left, but I don't accept it was a good idea.

 

[najaB]

I accept we've left, but I don't accept it was a good idea.

Same here. I'm willing to be convinced though if someone can provide actual, practical benefits of our chosen form of Brexit that outweigh the downsides of leaving. Or, for that matter, of leaving but remaining aligned with the EU (the Norway-style Brexit we were promised).

This is like the old Japanese soldier fighting on thinking the war is still going on.

Personally, I'm amazed that people think Brexit is "done". The EU is still there and is still our largest trading partner. The process of disentangling ourselves from the EU - what Brexit really means - is going to take years, if not decades, assuming that it's even possible to completely divorce ourselves from the countries we share a continent with.

 

[jon0844]

Unlike Brexit, the people who say they're leaving are quick to rejoin. Doesn't leave mean leave?