British Rail Class 91 and Mark IV coaches where are they going to go?

[Ash Bridge]

Could 91's end up on the sleepers?

Is their low tractive effort rating sufficient for operating the Caledonian Sleeper though?

 

[Whistler40145]

Another problem, isn't the speed limit lower when being driven from the blunt end?

 

[ash39]

Blunt end is a non-issue as they can still do 110mph running blut and the sleeper doesn't require any faster than that.

They are no good though. Same ETS index as the 90's (95 I think). The 92's are the only locos currently in the country that have the power to run the new 'mk5' sleeper stock due to be delivered in the next few years.

 

[Whistler40145]

Except for the 92s, another alternative could be the yet to be built 88s?

 

[ash39]

I'm not sure what ETS index the 88's will have, but I can't see them being deployed on the sleepers anytime soon. GBRf have a lengthy contract to provide traction for it and the 92's & 73's are being slowly but surely modified to do the job. Once settled down it should be this traction for the foreseeable future.

Going back to the 91's, I'm a big fan but being realistic I can't see any use for them in this country other than the work they're currently doing. I agree the mk4's will find use somewhere, probably behind 67's or 68's (plenty spare) - but the 91's will quite likely end up scrapped or abroad.

 

[Whistler40145]

I can't see a bright future for the 91s, unless something quite spectacular happens.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I can't see a bright future for the 91s, unless something quite spectacular happens.

This is so depressing, to my mind it only seems like yesterday that they were put into service

 

[aylesbury]

Cant see any use for the sets when they retire from the GN the future is Hitatchi for express and that will be it.In reality they should never been built as an emu would have done the job with resultant lack of dramas with the locos.The mk 4,s are a coach designed by a committee like the 4VEP, dark and dingy inside with poor seating and not a good quality ride.As for the GE mainline his will require an express emu as the most economic replacement for the poor quality stock used at the moment.It should not be based on a 350 but a new high class design to provide a high class passenger environment with a speed of 110mph this will be the answer and I hope it arrives soon.

 

[The Box Photter]

Surely its nuts to scrap locomotives that have had £millions spent on them just because the accountants now run the railways and EMU/DMU is cheaper to operate on the balance sheet.

What ever happened to "planned cascade" of stock? Are there no spare paths they could operate on the Anglia Main Line? How about laying on some extra trains to soak up the passenger demand instead of just replacing each service on a like for like basis?

What about using the Mk4s on Cross Country services as 10 or 12 coach rakes being hauled by class 67s, 68s or 57s? Then the ghastly Voyagers could all be shunted off to Scotrail or Northern Rail or anybody else who needs a 5-car unit? The railway is slowly being re-designed to accommodate multiple units only, with signals being placed at the end of platforms instead of a few yards off the platform end to allow a locomotive to stop beyond the platform end.

The easy option would be to scrap the 91s and it would keep the bean counters happy. Everyone seems to have forgotten that the railway is designed to provide a service and sometimes there needs to be "out of the box" thinking, a la Chris Green & Network South East.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Then the ghastly Voyagers could all be shunted off to Scotrail or Northern Rail or anybody else who needs a 5-car unit?

In a few years time when the MML electrification is complete there'll be plenty of spare 5- (and 4 and 7) car Voyager derivatives, in the form of the 222s. No-one seems to know if they'll have a home to go to, so trying to palm the Voyagers off seems a bit premature to say the least.

 

[randyrippley]

why not carry out the original cascade plan, finally fit the Mk4's with the tilt mechanism they were planned to have and use them on the WCML? Thats where they were supposed to go once they'd been replaced on the ECML by TGV-type stock. The carriages were intended to have tilt, the locomotives not (but still run at 125 on the WCML)
They could replace the EMUs on/intended for the Manchester / LIverpool > Scotland routes but with the 125mph max would better fit in with the Pendolinos. They could be used on services north from Birmingham as well.
Alternatively use them for Euston-Glasgow, allowing the Pendolinos to be used on more intensive services from Brum/Liverpool/Manchester > Euston. Again the 125mph tilt would allow them to match the Pendolinos
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In a few years time when the MML electrification is complete there'll be plenty of spare 5- (and 4 and 7) car Voyager derivatives, in the form of the 222s. No-one seems to know if they'll have a home to go to, so trying to palm the Voyagers off seems a bit premature to say the least.

Waterloo-Exeter and South Coast - Bristol will need replacement stock for the 158/159 sets sooner or later

 

[dk1]

Waterloo-Exeter and South Coast - Bristol will need replacement stock for the 158/159 sets sooner or later

They are roughly the same age though.

 

[sprinterguy]

What about using the Mk4s on Cross Country services as 10 or 12 coach rakes being hauled by class 67s, 68s or 57s?

Ten or twelve coach rakes would be too long for some platforms on the Cross Country routes, would destroy the fast Voyager timings we have at present and would be grossly excessive for the levels of passenger demand usually experienced.
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why not carry out the original cascade plan, finally fit the Mk4's with the tilt mechanism they were planned to have and use them on the WCML? Thats where they were supposed to go once they'd been replaced on the ECML by TGV-type stock. The carriages were intended to have tilt, the locomotives not (but still run at 125 on the WCML)

You'd have to fit all-new bogies, as the design currently fitted were never designed to tilt. SIG would have developed a tilting variant of the bogie for the proposed West Coast sets.
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Surely its nuts to scrap locomotives that have had £millions spent on them just because the accountants now run the railways and EMU/DMU is cheaper to operate on the balance sheet.

The class 91s have been through two rounds of reliability improvement programmes now, the chances are by the time they are withdrawn from East Coast services in 4/5 years time their reliability will be starting to deteriorate again.

As far as the ECML is concerned, having a homogenous fleet of AT-300 trains makes it easier to path trains as they all display uniform performance characteristics.

 

[CosherB]

This thread is, not surprisingly, rapidly finding solutions to problems that don't exist!

 

[furnessvale]

Well, Mk 3s date back to the late 70s, so I'm not surprised they look dated.

Mk 3s looking dated? I must be getting old!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mk 3s looking dated? I must be getting old!

Remove the slamdoors and they don't.

 

[CosherB]

Mk 3s looking dated? I must be getting old!

Me too! I've thought that the IEP carriages, externally, have a passing resemblance to the Mk3!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There aren't *that* many different ways to do a long thin metal tube with seats and windows. And the 800s look dated before they even enter service because of the sliding doors.

 

[TheKnightWho]

There aren't *that* many different ways to do a long thin metal tube with seats and windows. And the 800s look dated before they even enter service because of the sliding doors.

What was the reason for selecting sliding over plug in the end?

 

[JamesRowden]

There is the proposed Manchester to Basingstoke via Milton Keynes and Oxford service. The route should be fully electrified. 110mph non-tilting or 125mph tilting EMUs would seem the ideal stock. Perhaps some Pendolinos will be released when HS2 starts operating. If the service via East West rail service starts before HS2 opens, then perhaps short formations of Mark 4s combined with 90s or 91s could be used for the short-term. Although 110mph EMUs which could later be transferred to additional WCML commuter services post-HS2 might be a more attractive option.
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What was the reason for selecting sliding over plug in the end?

An obvious answer would be that sliding doors open/close faster and therefore reduce station dwell times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What was the reason for selecting sliding over plug in the end?

That the Japanese don't "do" plug doors. All Japanese Shinkansens are sliding-door, which does make them look a little dated to a European. I think they argue they are simpler and so more reliable.

ScotRail's new AT200s will have plug doors, but I believe ScotRail had to be quite pushy to get them, and the body still has large blank areas where sliding doors would go if they were fitted.
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An obvious answer would be that sliding doors open/close faster and therefore reduce station dwell times.

That depends entirely on door design. As an example, the plug doors on Mercedes Citaro buses are *very* fast moving, much more so than traditional bus doors, while sliding doors on PEP EMUs e.g. 507s are quite slow.

 

[TheKnightWho]

That the Japanese don't "do" plug doors. All Japanese Shinkansens are sliding-door, which does make them look a little dated to a European. I think they argue they are simpler and so more reliable.

ScotRail's new AT200s will have plug doors, but I believe ScotRail had to be quite pushy to get them, and the body still has large blank areas where sliding doors would go if they were fitted.

It seems strange that this is the case. Surely the aerodynamic profile of sliding doors is worse? I'm not an expert in fluid dynamics, though.

 

[Emblematic]

Remove the slamdoors and they don't.

Wouldn't that make them rather draughty at speed?

 

[Kentish Paul]

It seems strange that this is the case. Surely the aerodynamic profile of sliding doors is worse? I'm not an expert in fluid dynamics, though.

Seems to work on a 395. They are quite clever. The doors slide shut and then they are pushed outwards to seal them. Obviously not flush with with the exterior like a plug door but no wind noise even when stood by one at 140mph.

Not sure of the effect on aerodynamic drag though.

 

[Domh245]

It seems strange that this is the case. Surely the aerodynamic profile of sliding doors is worse? I'm not an expert in fluid dynamics, though.

I think it is one of those things that whilst it will have an affect on it, in the grand scheme of things, it's not really that substantial. There will probably be more drag from the surface friction than the door pockets.

 

[jopsuk]

It seems strange that this is the case. Surely the aerodynamic profile of sliding doors is worse? I'm not an expert in fluid dynamics, though.

It does seem strange, but look at this- hyper optimised for aero with carefully sculpted long nose, wheels faired over, fairings for the pantographs, aerodynamic patograph etc. Rated for 320km/h. Recessed doors!

 

[richieb1971]

I suppose the question is, when the electrified lines are finished will the loco stock at that time be better than the 91's?

If it is true that better stock will be available the 91's will surely get torched. If they are still competitive during that era, its probably best to store them until such a date they can be used again.

Scrapping perfectly good locos (British ones at that) should not be thrown away like rubbish.

 

[Emblematic]

On a brighter note, here's a documentary from 1988 all about their design and introduction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvsIYaRmRAM

 

[route:oxford]

There is the proposed Manchester to Basingstoke via Milton Keynes and Oxford service. The route should be fully electrified. 110mph non-tilting or 125mph tilting EMUs would seem the ideal stock.

No. 110mph non-tilting stock would be hopeless and force the units onto the "slows" between Didcot & Reading.

125mph is essential for other sections of the route that where non-tilt stock can run at that speed.

 

[randyrippley]

You'd have to fit all-new bogies, as the design currently fitted were never designed to tilt. SIG would have developed a tilting variant of the bogie for the proposed West Coast sets.

I thought the plan was to retrofit the Mk4's for the WCML with tilting BT12 bogies designed for the APT but subsequently updated. The SIG purchase was just a quick interim fix for the ECML
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They are roughly the same age though.

No - I'm talking about using the Voyagers on Waterloo-Exeter, not the Mk4's. The Voyagers should be ideal for that route