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British Rail Class 91 and Mark IV coaches where are they going to go?

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Suraggu

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Mk.4 coaching stock is notorious for being maintenance intensive. They are much more complex than a Mk.3 vehicle and they present their own problems.

Occasional railtour use would be pointless unless the depot they are based at has a permanent shore supply and the ability to work on them daily.
 
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Phil.

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I beg to differ. Don't forget the title of this topic, the class 91s and mark 4 coaches. In my opinion, the NRM should be making plans to preserve both 91031 and 91010 when they are withdrawn from service. The former is worthy of preservation as the last loco built at Crewe works and the latter as the fastest loco ever to run on the UK rail network. I'd like to see 91010 kept in the Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight livery and displayed next to Mallard at York with 91031 returned to Swallow livery with a set of matching mark 4s (DVT+FO+RFB+TSO+TSO+TSOE at minimum) to run occasional railtours (unless a third-party preserves such a set, in which case 91031 could be put on display at the other NRM site, or possibly next to the APT-P in Crewe Heritage Centre).

IC225 may not be quite as iconic as IC125, but in my view deserves to be.

Sadly it looks like most of the 91s are to suffer premature redundancy as the new IEP fleet arrives, but the mark 4 coaches should be cascadable.

How d you propose to obtain the funding for these expensive to maintain maintenance heavy vehicles?
 

43096

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Quite. Where is a Airbus built?

Final assembly in Toulouse, Hamburg, Seville, Tianjin and Mobile (US). Wings from Broughton in North Wales. Engines from, variously, Rolls-Royce, Pratt & Whitney, GE and Engine Alliance (GE / P&W joint venture).
 

theblackwatch

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I beg to differ. Don't forget the title of this topic, the class 91s and mark 4 coaches. In my opinion, the NRM should be making plans to preserve both 91031 and 91010 when they are withdrawn from service. The former is worthy of preservation as the last loco built at Crewe works and the latter as the fastest loco ever to run on the UK rail network. I'd like to see 91010 kept in the Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight livery and displayed next to Mallard at York with 91031 returned to Swallow livery with a set of matching mark 4s (DVT+FO+RFB+TSO+TSO+TSOE at minimum) to run occasional railtours (unless a third-party preserves such a set, in which case 91031 could be put on display at the other NRM site, or possibly next to the APT-P in Crewe Heritage Centre).

IC225 may not be quite as iconic as IC125, but in my view deserves to be.

Sadly it looks like most of the 91s are to suffer premature redundancy as the new IEP fleet arrives, but the mark 4 coaches should be cascadable.

Those two Class 91s have already been earmarked by the Railway Heritage Designation Advisory Board for preservation - but that does not mean that they will necessarily end up at the NRM. Duxford for 91110 perhaps?
 

43096

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How d you propose to obtain the funding for these expensive to maintain maintenance heavy vehicles?

He doesn't. It's another example of daft ideas being dreamt up that are funded by a bottomless pit of somebody else's money.
 

416GSi

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Final assembly in Toulouse, Hamburg, Seville, Tianjin and Mobile (US). Wings from Broughton in North Wales. Engines from, variously, Rolls-Royce, Pratt & Whitney, GE and Engine Alliance (GE / P&W joint venture).

Landing gear from Safran (formerly Dowty) in Gloucester.
 

yorksrob

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You could quite easily make the case for a 377 (or other electrostar) to be preserved as an example of the sort of suburban trains we used to have during the years of massive growth before everything reverted to Longitudinally seated 12 coach mega-tubes :D

Would have been a good reason to preserve EPB 5001. Sadly it didn't happen.
 

Bald Rick

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The document that is available for all to see showed that a RA7 rated locomotive couldn't operate at more than 90 mph on the MML due to weight restrictions on bridges.

I bow to your superior knowledge of operational documentation. I suspect that restriction could be lifted though, as 91s were designed to have extremely low track forces.
 

sprinterguy

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Those two Class 91s have already been earmarked by the Railway Heritage Designation Advisory Board for preservation - but that does not mean that they will necessarily end up at the NRM. Duxford for 91110 perhaps?
It's actually 91111 and 91131 which have been designated for the National Collection, not 91110.
 

Rhydgaled

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It's actually 91111 and 91131 which have been designated for the National Collection, not 91110.
Is 91131 even still designated? I'm not aware of anything which made clear whether the designation of 91111 was instead of or in addition to 91131. Even if 91131 is designated, that still leaves 91110 unprotected.

Yes but we know that Rhydgaled has a obsession that anything electric has to last at least 40 years. No doubt if some of Anglia 321's go to the scrapper in few years he will not be happy either and will no doubt tell us that the 317's should be lasting another 20 years.
I wouldn't be nearly as upset as I would be if 91110 or 91131 are scrapped, because the EMUs (or most of them) don't have the same historical significance and I don't have an emotional attachment to those EMUs (which I do for the 91s). But yes, I do think TOCs/DfT shouldn't be so hasty to introduce new trains for the sake of it. We are told that one of the benifits of electrification is that electric trains have a longer life and diesels typically seem to be designed to have a 30yr life, so I think it is reasonable to try and get 35-40yrs out of electric and hauled stock before replacing it.

In the case of any Anglia stock that has dump toilets and/or lacks accessible toilets and is already past 30 then I can see that perhaps it makes more sense to buy new now to avoid conducting such expensive modifications for only a few more years work (according to Wikipedia, the youngest 317s would reach 40 in 2027, so many would require TSI-PRM modifications for less than 7 years). But in the case of units like the 379s and Renatus 321s it is my opinion that replacement should not take place without a cascade plan in place to allow them to remain in use with older units (like the class 313s) being taken out of service instead. Scrapping things that have still got useful life in them is wasteful.
 
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sprinterguy

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Is 91131 even still designated? I'm not aware of anything which made clear whether the designation of 91111 was instead of or in addition to 91131. Even if 91131 is designated, that still leaves 91110 unprotected.
I'm not aware that it's been de-designated, but then again I haven't heard anything either way. The most recent list of designations on the Railway Heritage DAB webpage only goes up to the end of 2014. Even if de-designated I would have thought that 91031/131 would be deemed sufficient historically significant for the AC Loco Group to have a crack at preserving; funds permitting; which could well be the eventual outcome anyway.
 
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Townsend Hook

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I imagine the ACLG will have a crack at preserving a 91 just on general principle. Maybe one will be working Caley sleeper empties soon ;)
 

D365

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Blame the beer last night. But they do have huge DC motors don't they?

I can't use that excuse as I'm an electrical student :D

Yeah, rather huge. But they are still AC locomotives like their BR predecessors.
 

CosherB

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Serious question: Would 91s be a good option for the Caley sleeper?

No. The only option we currently have to operate the new CAF stock is the 92s due to the high ETS requirements - nothing else comes close.
 
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Premature? They'll be thirty years old, or just over - A fairly typical innings for fast passenger locos designed with a specific route in mind (the same length of time as the 87s spent in squadron passenger service, and ten years longer than the Deltics managed).

the Deltics suffered at the time of their replacement with a combination of things

1. small fleet ( 22 deltics, so less even than the 91s)

2. only 'passenger' type 5 - when the other work for type 5s was 'heavy haul' freight / heavy MGR coal (classes 56, 58 and 59)

3. obvious alternate uses e.g. MML, XC also getting HSTs and having plenty of existing type 4s that were capable of 95 or 100 vs the deltic's 100 - so not like there was an opportunity to jump in speed etc...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But wouldn't they have to create a new DCLG subgroup?

their existing stock has DC motors ...

the 'DCLG' has missed the boat as any purely 3rd rail locos are long gone from BR
 

Darandio

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As do many AC locomotives/EMUs.

The point I was getting at was that on the 91, they are excessively large?

However, next time I have a few beers I'll make sure I keep away from here, the 'someone said something wrong on the internet' brigade are really out in force...... :lol:
 

D365

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However, next time I have a few beers I'll make sure I keep away from here, the 'someone said something wrong on the internet' brigade are really out in force...... :lol:

Oh... I find a few beers usually helps :D
 
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