'British' TOCs

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by alexl92, 15 Apr 2015.

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  1. alexl92

    alexl92 Established Member

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    Just out of interest, which companies who form all or part of a current (or potential) franchise TOC can be classed as 'British'? For example, Stagecoach is a British company - it was founded here and its owner is British - if I understand correctly, but Abellio is a Dutch company?

    In terms of how you categorise what is and isn't British... I suppose founded and primarily operating in the UK? Or maybe that any operating profits will mainly go back into the British economy? Feel free to be flexible with that though.

    There's probably several cans of worms here but I'll take the risk!
     
  2. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    Go Ahead operate Southern, Southeastern, London Midland and Thameslink/Great Northern and are British.

    The less-straightforward ones are the likes of Arriva, who came out of 1930s Sunderland but are now a subsidiary of the Germany's DB...
     
  3. Clip

    Clip Established Member

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    Though that partnership is with Keolis

    /Pedant

    First are another British company - GWR
     
    Last edited: 15 Apr 2015
  4. Simon11

    Simon11 Member Jobs & Careers Assistant

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    National Express
     
  5. DeeGee

    DeeGee Member

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  6. mirodo

    mirodo Member

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    Last edited: 15 Apr 2015
  7. DeeGee

    DeeGee Member

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    Operational Revenues will go to pay staff salaries, which will go back into the British economy for all TOCs, regardless of their parent group.

    Operational profits will produce a surplus for use by either the TOC or the parent company to spend as they see fit, which may be in the UK or overseas regrdless of the nationality of the parent. It will also provide a dividend for shareholders who likewise may or may not be UK-based.

    The only important criterion is whether jobs are created and pay goes back into the economy. Ford's not British, but it sure as heck plays a vital role in the economy around Dagenham.
     
  8. mirodo

    mirodo Member

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    Foreign:
    AGA, Scotrail, Stansted Express (All Abellio - international arm of Nederlandse Spoorwegen)

    Partial:
    Merseyrail, Northernrail (50% Serco [UK], 50% Abellio [Dutch])
    ATW, Chiltern, CrossCountry, Grand Central (Arriva - UK HQ, but subsidiary of Deutsche Bahn)
    First Transpennine (55% First Group [UK], 45% Keolis [SNCF - France])
    GatEx, Great Northern, London Midland, Southeastern, Southern, Thameslink (Govia. 65% Go-Ahead [UK], 35% Keolis [French - SNCF owned])

    UK:
    First Great Western, First Hull Trains, Heathrow Express, Heathrow Connect, c2c, Caledonian Sleeper, East Midlands Trains, Island Line, South West Trains, Virgin Trains East Coast, Virgin Trains (All UK owned, either by one entity or in partnership)
     
    Last edited: 15 Apr 2015
  9. DeeGee

    DeeGee Member

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    Is Keolis no longer involved in FTPE? I thought Keolis has more in FTPE than it has in Govia.
     
    Last edited: 15 Apr 2015
  10. mirodo

    mirodo Member

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    I was bound to get one wrong! I've corrected my original posts.
     
  11. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Established Member

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    Keolis is part-owned by CdpQ of Canada, but majority owned by SNCF.

    Our friends north of the border like to call FirstGroup and Stagecoach "Scottish" companies because their HQs are based there.
    This may matter one day.
     
  12. mirodo

    mirodo Member

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    Ah, but both are listed on the LONDON Stock Exchange... :)
     
  13. alexl92

    alexl92 Established Member

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    Cheers all, that's interesting.
     
  14. mirodo

    mirodo Member

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    Doing a bit of maths, if you exclude the open access operators and those (GatEx/Island Line) which are actually part of a wider franchise, the share of the franchises which is in UK hands amounts to just over 56%
     
  15. Noddy

    Noddy Member

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    Didn't Alex Salmond say something about HQs just being a 'brass plaque'....
    ;)
     
  16. ac6000cw

    ac6000cw Established Member

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    Is that by franchise turnover/revenue or on some other basis ?
     
  17. mirodo

    mirodo Member

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    Nothing as fancy as that! 21 franchises, worth 100 points each. Points allocated according to the UK/foreign split of share holding. 2100 points in total.
     
  18. Noddy

    Noddy Member

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    Does it matter whether they are British or not?

    Personally I couldn't care less where they are from as long as they provide a decent, safe service and treat their staff well.
     
  19. AE

    AE Member

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    The main inconsistency with the arrangements, seems to me, to be the fact that a state owned non-British company is allowed to bid for a franchise whereas a state owned British company is not.
     
  20. mirodo

    mirodo Member

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    Indeed.
     
  21. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    They can, but not in the UK. Nothing stopping them bidding for franchises in other countries... If there were any to bid for, that is.
     
  22. Doctor Fegg

    Doctor Fegg Member

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    HX is owned by Heathrow Airport Holdings which itself is foreign-owned.
     
  23. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Established Member

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    There are some to bid for, notably in Germany (where Arriva originally made inroads).
    All the major cities tender their operations periodically.
    Part of the problem is that there are no major British public sector rail/transport companies with the funds and remit to bid.
    That's because we privatised it all.
    All that's left is LU (a big beast), and DRS (a small beast).
    I doubt their owners (TfL and NDA) are interested in foreign ventures.
    It's regrettable that the UK majors (Stagecoach, First and the rest) are so uninterested in Europe.
    They prefer to waste their energies on running bus services in the USA.
     
  24. al.currie93

    al.currie93 Member

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    I did read somewhere that TfL want to look into foreign operations, but I don't know if anything came of it. DRS seem more interested in stealth-nationalising our own railways :P
     
  25. mirodo

    mirodo Member

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    Would that be the same TfL who contact out their bus services to the likes of Abellio, Arriva et al?
     
  26. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

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    And the same TfL who have let LOROL operate the overground for the past few years, LOROL being half owned by Arriva, and the other half owned by MTR. I note that LOROL have been left out of that list, which could probably be redone quite a bit better.

    Lump together the sub-franchises:
    Stanstead Express+Greater Anglia
    Thameslink, Southern, and Great Northern
    South West Trains and Island Line

    I would also add in LOROL, who have been missed out.
     
  27. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Gone a long way since Cowies ;)

    They only bought their first bus operation in 1980 i believe.
     
  28. mirodo

    mirodo Member

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    I'll redo the list tomorrow at work - presumably I'll still be able to edit my original posts?

    Thoughts on including/leaving out the open access operators?
     
  29. alexl92

    alexl92 Established Member

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    I personally wouldn't consider Arriva to be British, as they're now part of the DB Group...
     
  30. mirodo

    mirodo Member

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    Yeah I changed it in the table in my first post but neglected to amend the text in the second post. Will fix when I'm not on my mobile
     
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