BTP assistance for incidents: So what do we think of this?

[Bungle73]

Just seen a piece on my local TV news programme, and apparently South West Trains are running an experiment, in combination with Network Rail, where if there is some kind of "incident" that needs attention that would delay trains, like a track problem, or a lineside fire, the BTP drive them where they need to go with their lights flashing and sirens going. The idea is to get problems resolved sooner and therefore shorten delays. If this experiment is successful it will be rolled out across the country. Thoughts?

 

[Mojo]

London Underground has been doing this for a while now, with both its Emergency Response Unit (the people who can actually fix stuff to get things moving) and the Network Incident Response Manager/Team (the person/people who can actually take charge of the incident, relay information and arrange service recovery). It works very well but of course the structure is very different - the people running the trains are also the people looking after the infrastructure.

 

[pinguini]

Sirens and lights should strictly be for emergencies where there is immediate danger to life only. Incidents such as line problems (unless they fall into the above category) such not be responded to as such.

 

[swt_passenger]

Just seen a piece on my local TV news programme, and apparently South West Trains are running an experiment, in combination with Network Rail, where if there is some kind of "incident" that needs attention that would delay trains, like a track problem, or a lineside fire, the BTP drive them where they need to go with their lights flashing and sirens going. The idea is to get problems resolved sooner and therefore shorten delays. If this experiment is successful it will be rolled out across the country. Thoughts?

It was announced by SWT back in March, is this not a progress report by the TV?

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/emergencyresponse.aspx

 

[Matt Taylor]

Not sure I agree, it sends out a message that blue lights are not always an emergency and it's inevitable that some drivers will take that to mean that they don't have to pull over.

 

[maniacmartin]

I don't think it's a good idea. What next? Bus mechanics, nurses, teachers, everyone could have an important reason to get somewhere in a hurry. Can they request police taxis too?

 

[Bungle73]

It was announced by SWT back in March, is this not a progress report by the TV?

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/emergencyresponse.aspx

No, it was just a general story about it iirc.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Not a fan. Blue light drives are not safe. Can you imagine trying to explain to someone that the reason their son/daughter/wife/husband etc was killed when crossing the road was to go and fix a train? As mentioned above, it also devalues the effect of lights and sirens.

London Underground has some specific challenges which makes me accept the fact the ERU arrives on lights (although I disagree with managers attending on lights), although I am still not in favour of it.

 

[455driver]

This was done during the Olympics, its nothing new.

 

[transmanche]

London Underground has been doing this for a while now, with both its Emergency Response Unit (the people who can actually fix stuff to get things moving) and the Network Incident Response Manager/Team (the person/people who can actually take charge of the incident, relay information and arrange service recovery). It works very well but of course the structure is very different - the people running the trains are also the people looking after the infrastructure.

When the 'blue light' trial for the ERU started, it was stated that the vehicle would be driven by a BTP officer and the vehicles would wear BTP livery (rather than LUL livery). Is that still the case?

Presumably the BTP officer would have the final say as to whether 'blues and twos' were justified for each specific incident.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

When the 'blue light' trial for the ERU started, it was stated that the vehicle would be driven by a BTP officer and the vehicles would wear BTP livery (rather than LUL livery). Is that still the case?

Yes.

Presumably the BTP officer would have the final say as to whether 'blues and twos' were justified for each specific incident.

Yes.

 

[DavyCrocket]

As said by Ralph it is up to the vehicle driver's discretion whether to drive with lights and siren activated and to not follow all road traffic laws (treat stop as give way etc etc). It is not for the call takers grading of the call to solely decide. Police policy on driving is usually online to read.
I was surprised when the BTP told me that a call for a person refusing to leave a train on a running line was an immediate response.

 

[tjl599]

I don't see what the issue is. Surely it is in the countries, the publics and the economies best interest to keep the rail network running and getting incidents dealt with reasonably quickly rather than having a network rail van that can fix the problem delayed in heavy traffic for 30 to 60 minutes. Besides, I can't see that every single blue light vehicle movement by the emergency services is for incidents involving 'immediate danger to life'.

 

[IanXC]

It works very well but of course the structure is very different - the people running the trains are also the people looking after the infrastructure.

I suppose given the deep alliance in place in South West Trains land this is the single part of the network most similar to the LUL situation.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I cant see whats wrong with it. An incident on the tube or a mainline can mean thousands of people being held up, overcrowding at stations and on trains, this could potentially lead to public order issues at stations etc, therefore getting the problem fixed fast is very important. Having those who can fix it stuck in traffic seems a waste of resources.

The important bit is that the driver is suitably qualified to ensure that public safety is not comprimised as they drive to the incident which I suspect is unlikely in these cases as the driver will not be going hell for leather.

 

[Latecomer]

I also can't see much wrong with it. Clearly the driving style adopted under blues and twos should be appropriate to the situation however and not like they are chasing an armed robber.

Traffic cars will often respond to breakdowns or accidents under blues even if no one has been injured and there is no imminent threat to life purely because of the chaos such an incident can cause. In this weather especially I don't think it's unreasonable to get assistance to the scene to sort out a problem when there could literally be thousands of standing passengers in 30 degree heat in queued trains and the associated problems that could unfold.

 

[the sniper]

I was surprised when the BTP told me that a call for a person refusing to leave a train on a running line was an immediate response.

Depends on the circumstance. If you're talking about not leaving over a ticketing matter without aggravating circumstances though, when I was in BTP at least, it wouldn't have usually got an immediate graded response.

That's not to say that there weren't TI's that got an unwarranted immediate grading because certain Guards knew what they could say to get a quicker response.

 

[wijit]

I simply refuse to accept that some comments here are serious. Are you really comparing the use of blues & twos to get a train running to a life or death situation? Utter tosh, if ever an ill-informed idea was destined to put the general public at risk, this is it.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I don't see what the issue is. Surely it is in the countries, the publics and the economies best interest to keep the rail network running and getting incidents dealt with reasonably quickly rather than having a network rail van that can fix the problem delayed in heavy traffic for 30 to 60 minutes.

Network Rail already manage to fix problems every day without lights in a quick fashion. In the very unlikely event that an engineer is required quickly (I can't even imagine way situation that might be then a police escort can be arranged.

Besides, I can't see that every single blue light vehicle movement by the emergency services is for incidents involving 'immediate danger to life'.

The police will respond on lights to an imminent or suspected threat to life or property. My service will respond on lights to an immediate threat to life, or a serious condition with the possibility of affecting life. In any case, I don't hunk anyone here is stupid enough to argue that their 80 year old nan having a stroke should get a slower response because some train engineers aren't allowed lights.



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[ralphchadkirk]

I cant see whats wrong with it. An incident on the tube or a mainline can mean thousands of people being held up, overcrowding at stations and on trains, this could potentially lead to public order issues at stations etc, therefore getting the problem fixed fast is very important. Having those who can fix it stuck in traffic seems a waste of resources.

If a public order situation occurs (and it never has because a train fault isn't fixed quickly enough) then I'm sure the police can arrange an escort. There should not be a routine response on lights at all which is what is happening.

The important bit is that the driver is suitably qualified to ensure that public safety is not comprimised as they drive to the incident which I suspect is unlikely in these cases as the driver will not be going hell for leather.

You're clearly not a blues trained driver.



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[ralphchadkirk]

Traffic cars will often respond to breakdowns or accidents under blues even if no one has been injured and there is no imminent threat to life purely because of the chaos such an incident can cause.

They respond because a broken down car in a live lane or hard shoulder is in a dangerous situation and require protecting. People are killed all the time in these situations.

In this weather especially I don't think it's unreasonable to get assistance to the scene to sort out a problem when there could literally be thousands of standing passengers in 30 degree heat in queued trains and the associated problems that could unfold.

Already perfectly well managed without the attendance of network rail staff on lights.



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[broadgage]

I don't think it's a good idea. What next? Bus mechanics, nurses, teachers, everyone could have an important reason to get somewhere in a hurry. Can they request police taxis too?

I think that they already can, in case of SERIOUS EMERGENCY ONLY not routine but urgent jobs.
I certainly know of a power company engineer who was given a police escort, with sirens and blue flashing lights, in order to attend to a major power failure.

 

[Latecomer]

They respond because a broken down car in a live lane or hard shoulder is in a dangerous situation and require protecting. People are killed all the time in these situations.

I'm perfectly aware of the dangers of these situations from the days when paramedics were called ambulancemen many years ago. What I am saying is that even when a situation is protected and made safe, on many occasions further police will arrive on blues in order to get traffic flowing again as quickly as possible and to coordinate contra-flows, etc. Furthermore, the police do occasionally transport relatives of someone who has an accident to hospital when the patient is critically ill. There is no threat to life of the person they are transporting, it is an act of compassion.

Already perfectly well managed without the attendance of network rail staff on lights.

I would say the incidents are managed as best as they can by the Network Rail, the TOC's and the signaller, however, trying to get an NR response team through London traffic in rush hour without the use of blues can take a very long time indeed. Yes there are contingency plans for controlled or uncontrolled evacuations but in the same way you accept that there is the potential for people to be killed on the hard shoulder, there is the potential for standing overheated passengers to fall seriously ill, or for there to be people pulling egress handles with all the dangers that lie around them.

 

[rebmcr]

I simply refuse to accept that some comments here are serious. Are you really comparing the use of blues & twos to get a train running to a life or death situation? Utter tosh, if ever an ill-informed idea was destined to put the general public at risk, this is it.

Paramedics are already instructed to move patients off trains even when they would normally not move them — because the risk of creating a lot more patients on trains suddenly queueing up away from stations, has been deemed more important. I see this as an extension of that policy.

 

[dcsprior]

I don't expect anyone would argue against using blue lights to get to a road accident where a 60-year-old man was injured and the prompt arrival of an ambulance would double his chance of survival from 5% to 10%.

In this case, the average amount of this man's life you're saving is 9,257 hours: UK male life expectancy at 60 is 82.12, so he has an average of 22.12 years or 185,134 hours left to live; multiply this by 5% to give 9,257 hours (yes, this is an oversimplification)

It could be argued that a delay affecting 12,500 passengers, with average delays of 45 minutes amounts to 9,350 hours, so there's actually more life at stake than in the case of the road accident. I'm not entirely comfortable with where this argument takes us, but its not without merit.

 

[GB]

Emergency services do not save people based on the life expectancy of a human so that argument is pretty void.

 

[starrymarkb]

I wish there were stricter rules on blue light use. I've noticed the local cops often use them to jump traffic waiting at traffic lights, then when ahead of the line lights off and normal speed resumes.

 

[rebmcr]

I wish there were stricter rules on blue light use. I've noticed the local cops often use them to jump traffic waiting at traffic lights, then when ahead of the line lights off and normal speed resumes.

That's a serious breach of rules.

 

[Antman]

I simply refuse to accept that some comments here are serious. Are you really comparing the use of blues & twos to get a train running to a life or death situation? Utter tosh, if ever an ill-informed idea was destined to put the general public at risk, this is it.

Let's no get it out of proportion eh?

Obviously a police driver would drive according to the circumstances, it is clearly NOT a life or death situaution but the 'blues and two's' would give them priority over other traffic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wish there were stricter rules on blue light use. I've noticed the local cops often use them to jump traffic waiting at traffic lights, then when ahead of the line lights off and normal speed resumes.

There are rules on the use of blue lights and if you witness abuse of these rules (as you've described) I would suggest you take the registration number and report the matter to the force concerned.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't remember anyone criticising the LU ERU for having this system brought in, why shouldn't NR do it as well?