Buying a Y/P ticket for someone else

[Ticket Man]

ill agree that the rule isnt perfect, but i see it as a preventative measure rather than the solution, sure you can buy them from the ticket machine or over the phone, but i think this rule reinforces the fact that no railcard means no discount. The public are not mind readers and many people still choose to buy their tickets at the ticket office, this way they know where they stand.

eg. miss student has a 16-25 railcard, walking past a station one day she decides to buy her ticket to visit mum & dad at the weekend. She tells the man in the ticket office that she has a railcard at home and the clerk agrees to sell her a YP ticket.
Come the weekend, miss students railcard is still in the same place it was when she brought the ticket but shes on her way to see mum & dad. Mr Conductor asks to see railcard and miss student defence would be "they never asked to see it at the ticket office so i didnt think i would need it".
Mr conductor issues the excess fare (or penalty fare depending on where you are), miss student gets upset, rings Mr & Mrs Student who then proceed to abuse mr conductor over the phone.

This example is far fetched but i have seen it happen before

 

[glynn80]

If a system were to be introduced, I think it would be similar to the database of Season Ticket holders.

Customers holding Monthly Season Tickets or longer are on purchase, entered into a database of Season Ticket holders. This allows renewals to be done much more quickly and ensures that discounts for failure to meet service level targets are automatically applied.

This database can be accessed from both Ticket Office TISs and SSTVMs.

If a database of Railcard holders was produced, each Railcard would have a unique number which the customer would have to enter on purchase of a Railcard discounted ticket. When a Railcard holder wished someone other than him/herself to purchase a ticket for them, all they would have to do would be to give the purchaser their unique Railcard number. The unique Railcard number could even be printed onto the ticket in the same fashion as Photocard numbers.

This system would not require any hardware alterations to SSTVMs seeing as they already have the functionality to access the Season Ticket database, the only alterations would be software based.

 

[yorkie]

This rule exists because if it didn't, Every tom dick n harry would be buying railcard discounts to which they are not entitled to.

In that case when these people learn how to use the internet or a ticket machine there will be mass fraud?

In fact is there any evidence that people who are denied tickets at the ticket office then do not use machines? or does the ticket office staff member close his window and stand in front of the machine denying them access to it?!

 

[monkey]

...dont' see the point in buying at the station. its so much easiar to buy online (for which you get a discount on too) pick up at the fasticket and breeze through on to the platform for you train. why bother standing in queue to pay more for a ticket and probs not get a good deal?

 

[glynn80]

In that case when these people learn how to use the internet or a ticket machine there will be mass fraud?

It is a preventative measure in the same way CCTV is preventative. A CCTV camera is never going to physically stop a criminal from committing their crime, but it does act as a deterrent.

Railcard checks both at the ticket office and on train also act as deterrents. Of course they are not fool proof, no system is, but as I have said before they are just one link in the chain

 

[Helvellyn]

If a system were to be introduced, I think it would be similar to the database of Season Ticket holders.

[snip]

This system would not require any hardware alterations to SSTVMs seeing as they already have the functionality to access the Season Ticket database, the only alterations would be software based.

I really hope that the TOCs are working towards this. Ticket on Departure allows people who have bought tickets over the phone or internet to collect their tickets from any TVM, and the TOCs have all worked together on this.

If you included the info held by Staff Travel too then you could finally allow staff to buy PRIV tickets via a TVM. If they wanted extra security staff could be issued with a PIN number to enter as well as the Pass number.

I also personally believe holders of Network and Family Railcards should have to carry a photocard, as it might deter some of the abuse of those cards. The holder has to be travelling in the group, so why don't they have to identify themselves like holders of 16-25 and Forces Railcards?

 

[John @ home]

I also personally believe holders of Network and Family Railcards should have to carry a photocard, as it might deter some of the abuse of those cards.

They used to have to for Family Railcards. BR chose to drop this requirement in the 1980s.

John

 

[Going South]

...dont' see the point in buying at the station. its so much easiar to buy online (for which you get a discount on too) pick up at the fasticket and breeze through on to the platform for you train. why bother standing in queue to pay more for a ticket and probs not get a good deal?

In my original instance it was because we had National Rail Vouchers so had to be used at office - would normally buy online.

 

[Greenback]

To my great surprise, and after careful thought, I have come up with a scenario whereby the rule might be useful!

It could alert the innocent traveller to the fact that they have forgotten their railcard, and allow them to go back home or wherever to retrieve it. This would only work where the traveller is going on a journey that's not time sensitive and doesn't want or need an advance ticket. If they were not asked to produce a railcard, they may get a reduced rate ticket then be caught for a hefty excess on the train itself. At least they would be able to decide whether to pay the full fare or not before boarding!

Mind you, I still think most (sensible) people would check they had their railcard before leaving for the station!

 

[monkey]

In my original instance it was because we had National Rail Vouchers so had to be used at office - would normally buy online.

...yeah I read that, wasn't having ago - but apart from that instance, I would never bother going to the station to buy ticket...

 

[glynn80]

Following on from the discussion above with regard to SSTVMs being able to identify Railcard holders and my proposal for a Railcard holders database, I have been reading a document giving details on the ITSO system for the National Rail network.

When the system is rolled out nationally it seems that Railcards will be placed onto ITSO enabled smartcards using the TYP 14 IPE.

This will probably be the time when SSTVMs will begin to require the Railcard to be presented before issuing any discounted tickets. I can't see ATOC diverting RSP resources and funding away from the ITSO project over to a method of Railcard identification when this will be forthcoming anyway when the ITSO scheme is rolled out.

Also just to answer Hellveyn's question about purchasing PRIV ticket's using SSTVMs. The ITSO system will encompass Staff Travel discounts as well, so if a Railcard identification process was going to be initiated on SSTVMs, I can see no reason why staff would not be able to identify themselves in the same way and then access Privilege discounts (obviously no firm policy has been set yet though).

 

[amn140174]

If you needed a photo card for a family railcard would that not mean you needed two photo cards. Example if only Daddy and kids Traveled this week and only Mummy and kids next week.

 

[John @ home]

If you needed a photo card for a family railcard would that not mean you needed two photo cards. Example if only Daddy and kids Traveled this week and only Mummy and kids next week.

If my memory is right, in the early 1980s there were up to 2 photos on the one piece of ID to go with the Family Railcard. The up to allowed single parents to buy a card.

Stretching my memory even further, I think at that time the family group had to consist of:
- one or both of the people on the ID card, and
- 0, 1 or 2 other adults, and
- 1, 2, 3 or 4 children.

John

 

[glynn80]

If you needed a photo card for a family railcard would that not mean you needed two photo cards. Example if only Daddy and kids Traveled this week and only Mummy and kids next week.

If my memory is right, in the early 1980s there were up to 2 photos on the one piece of ID to go with the Family Railcard. The up to allowed single parents to buy a card.

When the Family Railcard was originally introduced in 1979 there was, as John@home has already mentioned, a photocard requirement. However the photocard that had to be held, was not a Family Railcard specific photocard (like you must hold for the 16-25 Railcard: http://therailticketgallery.fotopic.net/p17905412.html), but just the generic British Rail adult photocard (http://therailticketgallery.fotopic.net/p17905409.html). So if a guard wished to check if the named Railcard holder was the person in front of them, they would ask to check the Photocard (which is also named) and would then cross reference the photo with the person in front of them. As far as I am informed, I have never heard of the 2 person photocard John mentions, but this may have come along later, I don't know.

As you state, there would be a requirement for two photocards seeing as the Family Railcard allows two named Railcard holders and this was the case in 1979. There were actually two editions of the Family Railcard, a one-adult card and a two-adult card. Obviously if you had the one-adult card, only one BR photocard needed to be held, if you had the two-adult card, two BR photocards needed to be held.

 

[MKB]

It seems pretty clear to me that the NCoC rule is now out-dated in these days of internet sales and needs to be changed. Or, if the TOCs wish to be completely consistent (not to mention Draconian and passenger unfriendly), ban the online/machine sale of fares using railcard discounts.

However, for me, the real issue here is that travel vouchers cannot be redeemed online. I've just obtained £4 of London Midland Delay Repay vouchers (after some considerable hassle because their online claim form failed to work and because they initially responded by saying that their late running train was actually on time).

I buy all my tickets online since I don't want to waste time and money making an extra journey to the station to get them in advance and I don't want to have to turn up at least 20 minutes early to ensure I can get them without missing my train. Despite explaining this to LM, they refused to issue a cheque and insisted on giving me travel vouchers, which will probably expire before I have chance to use them, just like my last lot did.

 

[glynn80]

However, for me, the real issue here is that travel vouchers cannot be redeemed online. I've just obtained £4 of London Midland Delay Repay vouchers (after some considerable hassle because their online claim form failed to work and because they initially responded by saying that their late running train was actually on time).

I buy all my tickets online since I don't want to waste time and money making an extra journey to the station to get them in advance and I don't want to have to turn up at least 20 minutes early to ensure I can get them without missing my train. Despite explaining this to LM, they refused to issue a cheque and insisted on giving me travel vouchers, which will probably expire before I have chance to use them, just like my last lot did.

Why don't you book your journeys through a telesales office. They can make reservations and hold bookings for passengers with Rail Travel Vouchers. What usually occurs is that the tickets are printed but held at the telesales office until the passenger has posted their vouchers in.

 

[blacknight]

...dont' see the point in buying at the station. its so much easiar to buy online (for which you get a discount on too) pick up at the fasticket and breeze through on to the platform for you train. why bother standing in queue to pay more for a ticket and probs not get a good deal?

And thats how you will find your local station in future is unmanned take a trip to Darnell to see what effect destaffing of station had in 60's. If you go be sure to go during hours of daylight as Nation Rail says best not to go there after dark.
Just because you can get a discount online just think why TOC's offer that that bribe maybe one day you will need assistance of station staff.
Moral use your local ticket office or lose it

 

[yorkie]

Moral use your local ticket office or lose it

Yes, but people won't use it if the staff are obstructive and refuse to issue tickets that you can get online with no hassle.

 

[jon0844]

It's just as frustrating when some ticket sellers won't give me a Gold Card discount on two or more tickets, unless each person is with me!

Last time I was queuing up at King's Cross (FCC ticket office cabin) and the others had gone off to the shops/toilet - and I was told to wait for them to come back! Then, realising how silly it was, he changed his mind and said 'on this occasion' and sold me the tickets.

The same happens for ticket extensions for other people - I have to have all the tickets with me to show.

Yet, anyone can buy a ticket to the next station to clear a gateline - and being caught with the wrong ticket, an invalid ticket or no ticket is surely treated the same if caught?

 

[Greenback]

And thats how you will find your local station in future is unmanned take a trip to Darnell to see what effect destaffing of station had in 60's. If you go be sure to go during hours of daylight as Nation Rail says best not to go there after dark.
Just because you can get a discount online just think why TOC's offer that that bribe maybe one day you will need assistance of station staff.
Moral use your local ticket office or lose it

TOC's would like to sell more tickets from their own website, as they can not only reduce ticket office staff, sving money, but also because they don't have to pay commission payable when someone else sells the tickets (whether through telesales, ticket office or website). I have heard that XC are relying on selling more tickets through their website to make up for some of the shortfall in growth this year.

TOC's can therefore pass on a small part of their savings to the customer to entice them to buy from their website. For instance, FGW recently had a 10% off online promotion. Whether it is worth saving a few quid when, in the longer term, customer facilities may be reduced through staff reductions, is debatable!

 

[TEW]

FGW's 10% off offer applies to all advance tickets bought online and is now permanent.

 

[Greenback]

I didn't know it was permanent, that's interesting! they are definitely trying to price people away from other purchasing opportunities!

 

[jon0844]

This rule exists because if it didn't, Every tom dick n harry would be buying railcard discounts to which they are not entitled to. Futher more, if they were caught using the railcard ticket, they would complain about being able to buy a railcard discounted ticket from the ticket office and how this is some secret ploy to issue more penalty fares!!!!

Someone buying an invalid ticket would not save any money when caught by an RPI/guard or a gateline that stops all YPRC/discounted tickets. They may try it once, then realise that you either buy the right ticket, or go for an easier option (like buying a ticket to the next stop to get through a gate - and come up with a 'lost my ticket' story, or just jumping the barrier).

The twist is that at night, once the ticket windows are closed, I can't buy a ticket extension when I go beyond Z6 - so I travel with my Travelcard and look to pay at the other end. Not once have I ever seen anyone at the other end, so I've never paid. If a TVM issued ticket extensions, I'd be buying that ticket without fail.

I sort of understand the argument that if you didn't show one when buying the ticket, you may not realise that you needed it when you travelled - but that's a pretty lame excuse (ignorance is no excuse for the law and all that). The seller simply makes it clear that the YPRC MUST be shown when used.

I know the excuse is used now, I've heard it, but an RPI isn't going to buy it and issue the relevant penalty/surcharge. It would have been made clear in the T&Cs with the sale of the YPRC, and it would be up the user to understand them. Maybe the ticket could be printed with a code (that is made clear to the customer at the point of sale) that states the railcard was not seen. It would then be obvious that the customer was made aware of the fact and had agreed to the need for the card.

Edit: I see someone else suggested the endorsement of the ticket idea - so may I now say that I support that as a perfect solution.

All in all though, it's a real mess - considering you can get many check tickets from a TVM or online.

 

[blacknight]

Yes, but people won't use it if the staff are obstructive and refuse to issue tickets that you can get online with no hassle.

Just because you can buy from a TVM or order online without showing a YP card dont mean its right, just a loop hole in the system which allows you to get round bye this at present.
As for staff being obstructive is that from a persective that you aint getting the answer you wish to hear.
Rule 5 terms & conditions on application form states show valid railcard when buying a ticket. Game over staff are not being obstructive but there's no point having rules if you aint prepared to enforce them.
As for setting automated gates to check YP cards defeats the object of automation in first place & passengers complain if checked more than once onboard.
Sad fact is TOC's are prepared to risk losing 34% of revenue rather than staff ticket offices at correct levels in hope of more shift migration. Before long it will be possible to order tickets colect tickets & complete journey without a member of rail staff ever see your ticket.
Yesterday for instance the ticket offices at Grantham-Darlington & Durham all shut early first 2 have automated gatelines which are then standing idle & redundant.

 

[jon0844]

I don't consider being able to buy a discounted ticket from a TVM as being a loophole.

I also fail to see why people would get a ticket with a 34% discount, which is totally invalid - and risk being treated the same as having no ticket (you could just get a ticket to the next station if you merely want to pass the barrier to get on to your train).

As long as we have people ensuring that the railcards are checked properly, and punish those that break the rules, surely we can then allow discounted tickets to be sold without needing to show a railcard - when you could be giving the ticket to someone else anyway!

I understand the problems with gatelines stopping discounted tickets, but this could be done randomly and still prove effective. The key is to making it clear at the point of sale that the ticket can only be used with a valid railcard. Ticket machines, and online, could make you press/select something to confirm - and the ticket could be endorsed by ticket sellers.

Fail to then produce a card and risk prosecution for fare evasion. Surely most people would then reconsider?

If you couldn't get a discounted any other way, the situation would be totally different, but it isn't - so the current rules are just stupid!

 

[blacknight]

I don't consider being able to buy a discounted ticket from a TVM as being a loophole.

If a machine cannot carry out same checks as person selling tickets then thats a loophole in the system which needs to be plugged.
Rule5 states You must show your railcard when buying a ticket not open to debate. Its just a term & condition that you have agreed to obide with when application for railcard was made.
Its the alternative methods of buying tickets that have created this problem likewise would you like your ticket checked onboard after every station stop? Thats only 100% way to be sure everyone is as valid ticket no point asking for tickets from as its like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas-Fare evaders just aint going to do it. At present TTI are manning gatelines so chances of being checked onboard are being reduced all the time with attitude of if station is gated why check tickets onboard.
As for 34% discount thats a gamble some are prepared to take if stopped onboard usually its just the discount thats recovered as is forgetting a railcard the same as no ticket carried? That brings more bad publicity. Also its a 2 tier system as if you discover error prior to boarding you can excess your ticket at booking hall but cannot onboard.
Very difficult to make a judgement is it forgetfulness or fare evasion & act accordingly

 

[yorkie]

it's not a loophole in my opinion, it is open to debate (we are debating it), and refusing to issue tickets is obstructive by definition in my opinion.

 

[jon0844]

I understand the T&Cs, but perhaps its time to change them - and also come down hard on anyone that is caught with a discounted ticket and no railcard.

What's the point in buying a discounted ticket that will be treated the same as no ticket - and you know it will be checked at some point, either on the train or at a gateline (which triggers 'seek assistance').

If people do it and hope to sweet talk their way around it, then it's the fault of the member of staff that lets them off 'on this occasion' or waves them through. Just as I find that asking people who sit in first class to move are doing nothing to stop them sitting there all the time.

It's good to be debating this, as it highlights all sorts of issues.

 

[Ticket Man]

I understand the T&Cs, but perhaps its time to change them - and also come down hard on anyone that is caught with a discounted ticket and no railcard.

come down hard on people with no railcard, can see that one panning out...

me: may i see your railcard madam?
Miss student: oops i seem to have left it at home
me: im sorry then ill have to withdraw your ticket and make you buy a brand spanking new expensive one
Miss student: but....... but ive got one (sobs, crys)

Id be called a Nazi even more than I do at the moment!!!!:roll::roll::roll:

 

[jon0844]

But I see many students saying they didn't realise they needed one, or they left it at home, but do you let them all off before you smell a rat?

Their ticket is invalid, so why do you care what people will think? If they really do have a ticket, let them appeal their penalty by producing the ticket AND railcard later on. If they had one, it will be quite obvious and easy to prove. Even then, when the appeal is successful - a note should be made to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

You get bad press for doing your job, yet they can break the rules and that's okay? Surely something is wrong there?

Maybe you can have some discretion (such as actually knowing someone that travels regularly, and you remember they have a card). Otherwise, do you come down hard on someone who looks like they're trying it on, while letting off those who give a sob story and shed crocodile tears?

You do know that some people know they only need to act a certain way to stand a better chance of getting off don't you?