glynn80
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Your damned if you do and your damned if you don't!
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Buying a Y/P ticket for someone else
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Your damned if you do and your damned if you don't!
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blacknight
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Until May 2010 there's no debate to be had with referance to any railcard T&C's when buying a ticket then Rule 5 applies anyone who disagrees with that rule then Rule 1 applies by signing up for railcard you have agreed to T&C's here endth the debate on said subject.
Fail to see how following rules can be viewed as obstruction but feel free to complain to company for me doing my job correctly.
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If there were a T&C on railcards I have real issues with its Rule 6 which states fail to carry railcard & you will be treated the same as low life fare evading scum who as no ticket or intention of buying a ticket unless caught.
Can tell that was drafted by suit in office whos never done a days revenue protection work.
Correct answer to this one is to recover the discount portion of fare & excess ticket held accordingly.
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Rules have to be enforced equally or whats the point of having them in first place. How can you come down hard on one person trying it on but effectively turn blind eye to some one committing the same offence.
Now that would really create bad press & if there's one thing TOC's dont want at present its bad publicity.
I'd rather you be damned for doing your job properly, than damned by people who pay a LOT of money each year to travel and hate seeing others getting away without paying.
I know the accusation of 'jobsworth' always comes up, but there's nothing wrong in doing your job - as long as you have some discretion. It seems that TOCs telling staff to avoid confrontational situations means there's a little TOO much discretion - and the solution is to ensure RPIs work in pairs, or teams, and are backed up fully by managers.
If the £50 penalty fare scheme is rolled out beyond London, I do fear that some RPIs are going to find themselves either turning a blind eye to everything or risking all sorts of problems. The inspectors that work on the London buses/tubes only ever seem to work in, frankly, menacing looking 'squads'.
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I am saying rules are enforced equally, but I know a few RPIs and if one day I came home and said I'd lost my season ticket on the journey (had I lost it before, I'd have bought a new ticket, and claimed it back later) - I'd be quite sure that they would let me out to go to the window and apply for a replacement - instead of giving me a £20 penalty that I would get back on appeal anyway.
That's what I mean about a level of discretion.
Likewise, if a whole load of people board at a station and say the ticket machine was not working; do you assume they all agreed together to say so before boarding, or that the machine may be not working and sell tickets onboard - even if it hasn't reported a fault itself, such as a touchscreen problem that prevents certain parts of the screen working like 'buy ticket' - a real example that no RPI could check remotely.
The T&Cs for a railcard say you must show it - and I do sometimes wonder why people who supposedly own a YPRC don't have it in a wallet that they can keep their ticket with.
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Ticket Man
Member
discretion may work in some cases but in railcards it doesnt. its got to be cosistant and i think the current system of paying back the discount is more than enough. if i start deciding to let the odd one or two that i think are genuine go then sooner or later, someone who was made to pay back the discount will see someone let off and yell discrimination at the top of their voice.
my job treads a fine line as it is without having to make silly judgement calls that will get me investigated and/or the sack!
my job treads a fine line as it is without having to make silly judgement calls that will get me investigated and/or the sack!
I realise I'm barging into this discussion without any introduction or the like, but the topic caught my eye (especially as I have just renewed my 16-25 railcard!). 
To me it seems fair that you need to present the railcard on purchase and whilst travelling. I cannot agree that it is similar to buying a child ticket with the child not being present during the purchase. A child ticket, whilst being cheaper than an adult fare, is still a full price ticket for the individual travelling on it. However using a 16/25 railcard gives access to a reduction - and with a reduction on the full price, one expects to have to prove one's eligibility to this reduction, in the same way one would present a clubcard voucher in Tesco or similar. Leaving it to the discretion of staff isn't acceptable - however if you are travelling without your railcard and do get fined, I think the fine should be withdrawn if you can prove you had a valid railcard by presenting it after the event. This would cover those who have the rare lapse and forget to carry their railcard. Of course, in an ideal world, revenue protection officers should have access to a register containing all railcard details over the phone - so if you have forgotten your railcard and can prove your identity, an on-the-spot fine can be replaced with a warning to remember your railcard in future.
As it is, I rarely use my 16/25 railcard (my £390 a month season ticket also includes a London travelcard) and only renewed it to save money on an anytime London Euston - Glasgow Central anytime day return, but do not object to having to show my railcard at purchase and when travelling. As it is, Southern railway staff rarely ask to see railcards, however when travelling on FCC and other operators it was normally requested.
To me it seems fair that you need to present the railcard on purchase and whilst travelling. I cannot agree that it is similar to buying a child ticket with the child not being present during the purchase. A child ticket, whilst being cheaper than an adult fare, is still a full price ticket for the individual travelling on it. However using a 16/25 railcard gives access to a reduction - and with a reduction on the full price, one expects to have to prove one's eligibility to this reduction, in the same way one would present a clubcard voucher in Tesco or similar. Leaving it to the discretion of staff isn't acceptable - however if you are travelling without your railcard and do get fined, I think the fine should be withdrawn if you can prove you had a valid railcard by presenting it after the event. This would cover those who have the rare lapse and forget to carry their railcard. Of course, in an ideal world, revenue protection officers should have access to a register containing all railcard details over the phone - so if you have forgotten your railcard and can prove your identity, an on-the-spot fine can be replaced with a warning to remember your railcard in future.
As it is, I rarely use my 16/25 railcard (my £390 a month season ticket also includes a London travelcard) and only renewed it to save money on an anytime London Euston - Glasgow Central anytime day return, but do not object to having to show my railcard at purchase and when travelling. As it is, Southern railway staff rarely ask to see railcards, however when travelling on FCC and other operators it was normally requested.
Ticket Man
Member
chrisg
the idea of allowing people to show their railcard at a later date would not work, the reasons for this are:
1. this would cost money to implement to both the toc having to make a new paper trail and to the customer in getting to a station to show their railcard.
2. on average, i with-draw 1-2 railcards a month being used by people whos friend said they could use it, or they have a friend/sibling/othe relative who looks simular to them or has a poorly lit photo with it. what ever the reason, they've obtained the discount through fraudulant means. if people knew they could get away with not carrying their railcard, they would be less put off by the idea of lending it to someone to use as they could prove at a later date they have one. the rule you must carry the railcard on al journeys, whilst not water tight, is a preventative measure against railcard sharing.
the idea of allowing people to show their railcard at a later date would not work, the reasons for this are:
1. this would cost money to implement to both the toc having to make a new paper trail and to the customer in getting to a station to show their railcard.
2. on average, i with-draw 1-2 railcards a month being used by people whos friend said they could use it, or they have a friend/sibling/othe relative who looks simular to them or has a poorly lit photo with it. what ever the reason, they've obtained the discount through fraudulant means. if people knew they could get away with not carrying their railcard, they would be less put off by the idea of lending it to someone to use as they could prove at a later date they have one. the rule you must carry the railcard on al journeys, whilst not water tight, is a preventative measure against railcard sharing.
I admit it would certainly cost money to implement such a scheme. Is it not the case currently though that if you have left your ticket at home but get a penalty fare, that your penalty notice is cancelled if you can present this ticket via their appeals procedure? I know that a friend of mine was fined for travelling without her travelcard season ticket, but the fine was withdrawn after she had proved to the relevant authority that she did have a valid ticket but had left it at home (dozy cow).
As for lending the railcard to someone else, I thought it was only valid with a photocard, hence making it much harder to use someone else's card. Surprised to hear that people share their cards with people who look similar - crafty buggers!
Ticket Man
Member
sharing railcards does happen, only last week had a girl who was using her friends one who looked slightly simular, she said it was an old photo and i only got her when i asked her date of birth and she couldnt match the one on the railcard. better luck next time love
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mostly though its people using their own photocard but the date portion of someone elses railcard
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mostly though its people using their own photocard but the date portion of someone elses railcard
If I leave my season ticket at home, I have to buy a full price ticket and claim it back (which I have done once in five years - and it was no hassle at all). If I got on to the railway without using/showing a ticket and noticed later, I'd take the penalty (without fuss) and appeal. Again, no problem.
With a YPRC it's harder because - as you say - people share the ticket out (and I bet most RPIs don't check that thoroughly) or you could buy a ticket for someone else, show your valid card - then give the ticket to someone else and let them try and use a gate to get out (and try the 'left it at home' excuse if stopped). I guess people can (and do) also share their season ticket - but that's another problem.
It's for this reason that I don't see the problem with selling the ticket from a ticket window - as it's the using part that is open to the fraud. Someone intent on buying a discounted ticket will use a machine or buy online, so there's no point in enforcing a rule at the ticket window. Now, as long as that IS the rule - fair enough - they have to do it for now - but the rule makes no sense anymore.
And for enforcement, you must make it damn clear to everyone that the YPRC is part of the ticket and if you have left it at home, you must buy a full priced ticket and then, by all means, claim the discount back later - or apply for a refund if you'd already bought the other ticket.
With a YPRC it's harder because - as you say - people share the ticket out (and I bet most RPIs don't check that thoroughly) or you could buy a ticket for someone else, show your valid card - then give the ticket to someone else and let them try and use a gate to get out (and try the 'left it at home' excuse if stopped). I guess people can (and do) also share their season ticket - but that's another problem.
It's for this reason that I don't see the problem with selling the ticket from a ticket window - as it's the using part that is open to the fraud. Someone intent on buying a discounted ticket will use a machine or buy online, so there's no point in enforcing a rule at the ticket window. Now, as long as that IS the rule - fair enough - they have to do it for now - but the rule makes no sense anymore.
And for enforcement, you must make it damn clear to everyone that the YPRC is part of the ticket and if you have left it at home, you must buy a full priced ticket and then, by all means, claim the discount back later - or apply for a refund if you'd already bought the other ticket.
Ticket Man
Member
seems like were going round in circles here:roll:
the system aint broke so stop trying to fix it, none of the rules in place can completely stop fraud but they are preventative measures. yes we can't check railcards at the machine or via the tinterweb, but if these methods of purchasing tickets were removed, the railcard community would be in uproar about it.
This rule is in place to inform the customer and to ease the ammount of fraudulant railcard discounts plain and simple.
the system aint broke so stop trying to fix it, none of the rules in place can completely stop fraud but they are preventative measures. yes we can't check railcards at the machine or via the tinterweb, but if these methods of purchasing tickets were removed, the railcard community would be in uproar about it.
This rule is in place to inform the customer and to ease the ammount of fraudulant railcard discounts plain and simple.
It is broken because buying tickets at a machine gets around the lack of security at a gateline. The solution there is to block ALL discounted tickets, but we don't want that - so we have the need to check the railcard at the point of sale, except you can then buy a discounted ticket by other means, or getting someone else to buy it for you by presenting their railcard.... it certainly IS going around in circles isn't it - almost enough to make us very dizzy!
But, I'll agree that it isn't the biggest problem in the world!
But, I'll agree that it isn't the biggest problem in the world!
If you think it's unfair, don't buy online or from ticket machines. Personally I think the opposite, and therefore I will buy online!
Just the other week I bought an AP ticket for someone for use in conjunction with his Railcard, and he gave me the money. He wasn't able to use his card or get to a station and if I had not done this he may not have got the ticket. I think there is nothing unfair or dodgy in that whatsoever. It is perfectly legit, legal, fair and sensible. Yet if I had gone to a ticket office and got someone who sticks to the rules the sensible request would have been refused. Madness.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Ticket Man
Member
If we did allow people to buy a ticket without a railcard, how long would it before season holders start griping about showing their photocard before purchase. "but thats not fair, I know my photocard number" they would cry
But people are already allowed to buy tickets without showing their railcard! That's the point!!!!!
Seriously, people do understand that photocard numbers have to be printed on the season ticket to make them valid, If this was done to railcard discounted discounts using the railcard number, it would be another fraud prevention measure and as stated before on this thread, holders could enter their railcard number at machines, online and over the phone.
I still think that without such a system, it is illogical that you cannot buy a ticket, in advance at a station, without showing a railcard, yet you can when you get home. Some people agree, some don't. To me, the argument that it helps prevent fraud is a little spurious, as you have already stated that there are lots of examples of people using the railcards of others anyway. The ticket office rule doesn't seem to help to stop this at all!
Seriously, people do understand that photocard numbers have to be printed on the season ticket to make them valid, If this was done to railcard discounted discounts using the railcard number, it would be another fraud prevention measure and as stated before on this thread, holders could enter their railcard number at machines, online and over the phone.
I still think that without such a system, it is illogical that you cannot buy a ticket, in advance at a station, without showing a railcard, yet you can when you get home. Some people agree, some don't. To me, the argument that it helps prevent fraud is a little spurious, as you have already stated that there are lots of examples of people using the railcards of others anyway. The ticket office rule doesn't seem to help to stop this at all!
Ticket Man
Member
But the rule is used as a way to re-enforce the fact that you need a railcard to travel as i said in an example earlier on in this thread
eg. miss student has a 16-25 railcard, walking past a station one day she decides to buy her ticket to visit mum & dad at the weekend. She tells the man in the ticket office that she has a railcard at home and the clerk agrees to sell her a YP ticket.
Come the weekend, miss students railcard is still in the same place it was when she brought the ticket but shes on her way to see mum & dad. Mr Conductor asks to see railcard and miss student defence would be "they never asked to see it at the ticket office so i didnt think i would need it".
Mr conductor issues the excess fare (or penalty fare depending on where you are), miss student gets upset, rings Mr & Mrs Student who then proceed to abuse mr conductor over the phone.
ill admitt its not pefect but its better than nothing.
The way around that could be to remind the customer when they purchased the ticket of the requirement to carry the railcard when travelling and stamp the ticket with 'Validity Advised' as used to happen with CDR's and TC's sold from Reading station from memory. As almost all ticket office staff willa sk for the railcard anyway, and some appear to be happy to issue tickets in advance without it being present, this surely should not be difficult? Maybe there is a problem I haven't considered, if so I am sure that I will be put right!
I gave an example earlier where I could see the point of having to show the railcard, but on balance, I remain of the view that with al;ternative methods of purchase available, the inconsistencies in the T&C's need to be addressed one way or the other. At the moment, innocent travellers can be inconvenienced, but fraudsters are still able to buy a ticket with no railcard and take a chance!
It's good to have a sensible debate though, even if as jonmorris0844 said a few posts back, it isn't a huge problem by any stretch of the imagination...
I gave an example earlier where I could see the point of having to show the railcard, but on balance, I remain of the view that with al;ternative methods of purchase available, the inconsistencies in the T&C's need to be addressed one way or the other. At the moment, innocent travellers can be inconvenienced, but fraudsters are still able to buy a ticket with no railcard and take a chance!
It's good to have a sensible debate though, even if as jonmorris0844 said a few posts back, it isn't a huge problem by any stretch of the imagination...
blacknight
Member
On a point of order rail tickets are non transferable & are proof of you entering a contract with said TOC to make journey. So assuming you ordered tickets online tickets would be printed in your name so if a ticket inspector doing ticket checks on his train compared name on ticket with that on railcard your friend risks in theory of not holding a valid ticket & faces being issued with a penalty fare.
I don't see why it matters whether she showed the railcard to get the ticket or not. You can't be sure she wouldn't leave the YPRC at home on the day she travels anyway - and she could then argue that she showed the railcard to buy the ticket, so why the hell does she need to carry it now?
It would be better to do away with the need to show it in the first place, so it can be made clearer to the owner of the railcard that it is their responsibility to carry the card as it's required only when travelling with a discounted ticket.
If people want to buy totally invalid tickets at a discount, it seems to me that they're pretty stupid. If the railway is checking tickets properly, they'll soon realise there's no point. If you're trying to take a chance, you'd buy NO ticket.
Why? I bought the ticket for him. What does it matter if the ticket has my name on it? There's no rule that says you can't buy a ticket for someone else.
As I've said before, I've bought loads of tickets for other people, I will continue to do so.
John @ home
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Agreed. They must be used by the person for whom they have been purchased. Of course, the identity of the individual may not be known by the purchaser at the time of purchase.
The you entering into the contract in this case is the purchaser, not necessarily the traveller. If the ticket is purchased by a company, the you is not a human being at all.
Some ticket issuing systems print the surname (or former surname, or abbreviation of company name) of the purchaser on the ticket.
Not agreed. There is no requirement in the National Conditions of Carriage for the purchaser to be the traveller.
If I go to the ticket office at Leeds station and say "4 adult and 2 child day returns to York, please", it is obvious that not all 6 tickets are for my use.
John
Ticket Man
Member
i dont get how doing away with showing your railcard on purchase would make it clearer to the customer, if anything i think it would have the oppersite effect in much the way that you dont have to carry your driving license arround with you as you.
If people are asking to see your railcard at more than one stage of the process, you know to carry it with you.
glynn80
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The National Rail Conditions of Carriage clarifies the situation as follows:
Emphasis added personallyNRCoC said:
As stated the ticket is only to be used by the person "for whom" it has been bought, there is no requirement that the purchaser must also be the traveller. Of course if that were to be that case the NRCoC would read "A ticket may only be used by the person who bought it"
blacknight
Member
Technically it is abreech of T&C of sale in as much you are acting as an unlicensed tiket agent who may or maynot be charging a handling fee for purchase of ticket for someone else.
Not saying You are but some people maybe doing that which is illegal how can your friend prove you have bought tickets for them as any paperwork held for tickets would have your name & account details with online booking agency.
There maybe no rule that states name on ticket must be checked but wouldnot alarm bells be ringing as to possible ticket fraud if name on ticket is Miss X but standing before you is Mr Y is this your ticket sir? As it been stolen or being reused or as third party bought ticket for him.
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blacknight
Member
I personally think it is always best to ask for railcard at every point of contact with railway employee, be at ticket office at manned barrier checks & during on board checks, that way you educate people into the importance of always having their railcard with them.
People will always try to take advantage of system ie I have a student card do that get me discount No but if challenged easy to say I forgot my railcard & pay the excess due no real penalty fare as such as them you would be punishing the honest but forgetful passenger aswell those try to avoid full fare.
UFN Rule 6 applies anyone not liking that refer to Rule1 on railcard T&C's
Can you quote your source please?
What exactly is illegal, and what law?
No proof is needed. If you are making an allegation, the onus is on you to prove we are acting wrongly.
Thank you!
Alarm bells can ring all they like, but there is no fraud, and no evidence of fraud.
Next we'll be told that 'crossing the line' refers to a bit of paint on a platform!
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That's just stupid. Asking to see the railcard when the ticket is actually being used is the only time staff need to check.
It is up to the ticket holder to comply with the rules, and if they don't - or try it on - that's not the fault of the railway. Yes, some will whinge to the Daily Mail and say it's unfair. Some will get a comment from their mum saying 's/he is such a law abiding person and was treated like a criminal and has now had a mental breakdown and failed their degree and wants compensation', but these people will always find something to moan about.
Meanwhile, we have people being asked to present a card when they buy a ticket in advance, possibly for someone else, despite the fact there are plenty of ways to get around this - and, as I said before, it helps people complain if 'caught' by saying 'I already showed my railcard' or 'How do you think I got this ticket if I didn't have a railcard'.
Common sense applies.
There's no point quoting existing T&Cs either; we all acknowledge these are the rules and have accepted them, but it doesn't stop us trying to get the silly situation fixed.
Ticket Man
Member
Then surely we should limit the ammount these people have to complain about.
I work gateline, these excuses are usually (and dont accuse me of being age-ist) used by senior railcard holders, in fact id go as far to say that 95% of problems i get with railcards are senior.
Dont think ive ever (or at least its extremely rare) had a y/p railcard holder gripe about having to show their railcard at the gateline. most of them accept if they want the discount they have to show it.
glynn80
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I think you forgot the "In my opinion" at the beggining of that sentence. Obviously your personal view is that checking Railcards at any other stage than on train is not necessary, the TOCs obviously believe there is some merit in checking the Railcard at other times.
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