Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[childwallblues]

An announcement, Rolls Royce has won the contract to supply the 55 Class 195 with 140 Series 1800 engines from its MTU division for £25m.

The Series 1800 are V12 with 760-940 HP the top end one of course being the same one fitted to the IEP.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/03/rolls-royce-connect-midlands-north-winning-rail-deal/

I had not realised that Rolls Royce owned MTU.

 

[superkev]

I'm surprised they aren't using the MAN d2876.
This is compact 6 cylinder horizontal in line rather than a vee and is proposed for the Class 319 dieselisation project. Wasn't MAN enginrs was fitted the the CAF built Irish dmus.
K

 

[lejog]

I'm surprised they aren't using the MAN d2876.
This is compact 6 cylinder horizontal in line rather than a vee and is proposed for the Class 319 dieselisation project. Wasn't MAN enginrs was fitted the the CAF built Irish dmus.
K

Pardon?

 

[Bungle965]

I'm surprised they aren't using the MAN d2876.
This is compact 6 cylinder horizontal in line rather than a vee and is proposed for the Class 319 dieselisation project. Wasn't MAN enginrs was fitted the the CAF built Irish dmus.
K

MAN engine in the Class 3000, while the Class 4000 was equipped with MTU engines.
Sam

 

[Billy A]

I had not realised that Rolls Royce owned MTU.

Yes, they used to own half of the company through a company called Tognum. Mercedes had the other half and sold out to RR a few years ago.

 

[Mikey C]

A lot of these new train products are designed to accommodate a modular power unit. Its the same shell design, same bogies, same wiring, same train OS software, they just insert a Engine/Electric/Battery module in to the space as appropriate during manufacturing. Gone are the days when you built a carriage around an engine.

This is where Bombardier seems to have missed a beat.

The Electrostars and Turbostars had lots in common. Going back further, I assume the Networkers and Network Turbos were partially related...

Either way, what it has done is left the market open for CAF to be the default supplier of DMUs, and with orders like these where EMUs are needed as well, a great chance for CAF to win both

 

[ac6000cw]

I'm surprised they aren't using the MAN d2876.
This is compact 6 cylinder horizontal in line rather than a vee and is proposed for the Class 319 dieselisation project. Wasn't MAN enginrs was fitted the the CAF built Irish dmus.
K

To quote from my earlier post (from the MTU press release), it's a '6H 1800 R85L' engine (horizontal inline 6-cylinder), see https://mtu-online-shop.com/print/3235271_MTU_Rail_spec_PowerPack%20_6H1800.pdf if you want the info on the 'powerpack'.

 

[Mikey C]

I had not realised that Rolls Royce owned MTU.

Rolls Royce took full control 3 years ago

 

[edwin_m]

The Electrostars and Turbostars had lots in common. Going back further, I assume the Networkers and Network Turbos were partially related...

With both types the DMU bodyshell is about 3 metres longer and a bit narrower. I don't know if the diesel engine, fuel tank and associated components would fit underneath the electric version. DMUs also traditionally use a lower voltage for auxiliary circuits but I don't remember if Networkers/Turbostars were standardised with their EMU equivalents.

 

[pemma]

With both types the DMU bodyshell is about 3 metres longer and a bit narrower. I don't know if the diesel engine, fuel tank and associated components would fit underneath the electric version.

There's not really been any call for 20m DMU carriages for a long time but if production of 20m EMU carriages had stopped that would have created difficulties for a significant number of routes in and out of London getting new trains.

If it hadn't been for the ordering of more Desiro carriages than SWT could utilise I imagine we'd have far fewer 20m EMU carriages operating in the midlands and north.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With both types the DMU bodyshell is about 3 metres longer and a bit narrower. I don't know if the diesel engine, fuel tank and associated components would fit underneath the electric version. DMUs also traditionally use a lower voltage for auxiliary circuits but I don't remember if Networkers/Turbostars were standardised with their EMU equivalents.

What is fairly obvious if you use both is that until the most recent generation the internal panelling and lighting was all completely different.

 

[Roose]

I find it a bit weird that Bombardier gave up this sort of work when they had a virtual monopoly on such DMUs.
Yes they have plenty of Aventra work at the moment, but when they starts running down they'll be the first to complain and use the patriotic flag.

Is that likely to be a Canadian flag or a German flag?

 

[WatcherZero]

The Derby Telegraph and RMT flags.

 

[pemma]

I think both Bombardier and Siemens were unhappy that the ITT for at least 202 new DMU vehicles for Northern, TPE and FGW was never awarded and Bombardier were unhappy the add-on option for more 172s never happened, while Siemens were unhappy the 185 order got cut back when they were originally envisaging to produce 15 more vehicles initially with the option for further vehicles, which again never happened.

 

[pemma]

Is that likely to be a Canadian flag or a German flag?

The Quebec provincial flag which some Daily Mail journalist will think is the Scottish flag.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think both Bombardier and Siemens were unhappy that the ITT for at least 202 new DMU vehicles for Northern, TPE and FGW was never awarded and Bombardier were unhappy the add-on option for more 172s never happened, while Siemens were unhappy the 185 order got cut back when they were originally envisaging to produce 15 more vehicles initially with the option for further vehicles, which again never happened.

It does occur to me that Britain's Railways might not be seen as a very good customer. Unless you are Hitachi, in which case we are falling over ourselves to justify a new factory in the UK. So we order plenty of trains that are to a new novel design. So many ordered that some of the orders are having to be built outside the UK ! - that is some or all of the AT300s iirc.

 

[47802]

It does occur to me that Britain's Railways might not be seen as a very good customer. Unless you are Hitachi, in which case we are falling over ourselves to justify a new factory in the UK. So we order plenty of trains that are to a new novel design. So many ordered that some of the orders are having to be built outside the UK ! - that is some or all of the AT300s iirc.

Yes but bear in mind the problem of old stock having to meet the 2020 disability regs and cost associated, is pushing an excessive demand for new stock which otherwise particularly in the case of the 800's might be met with a more slow UK build.

 

[Mikey C]

It does occur to me that Britain's Railways might not be seen as a very good customer. Unless you are Hitachi, in which case we are falling over ourselves to justify a new factory in the UK. So we order plenty of trains that are to a new novel design. So many ordered that some of the orders are having to be built outside the UK ! - that is some or all of the AT300s iirc.

On the other hand, the UK must be one of the biggest buyers of trains at the moment, I doubt anywhere else is Europe has experienced the growth we've had

 

[superkev]

Now that MTU engines have been announced for the 195's presumably they will have ZF rather than Voith transmissions. A 158 is running around somewhere with a next gen vioth box so may be a contender.
Incidentally Wikipedia gives the enging rating as 523bhp which I suspect is its maximum rather than actual the 172 being 485.
K

 

[Billy A]

Now that MTU engines have been announced for the 195's presumably they will have ZF rather than Voith transmissions. A 158 is running around somewhere with a next gen vioth box so may be a contender.
Incidentally Wikipedia gives the enging rating as 523bhp which I suspect is its maximum rather than actual the 172 being 485.
K

There's a 158 using a Voith Diwa gearbox which isn't next generation so much as different generation - it's usually used in buses but it's expected that it'll be more efficient in trips with frequent stops than the usual Voith hydrodynamic transmissions which depend on torque converters and fluid couplings whereas the Diwa unit uses mechanical drive in the higher gears.

 

[CosherB]

Now that MTU engines have been announced for the 195's presumably they will have ZF rather than Voith transmissions. A 158 is running around somewhere with a next gen vioth box so may be a contender.
Incidentally Wikipedia gives the enging rating as 523bhp which I suspect is its maximum rather than actual the 172 being 485.
K

Whilst factually correct in this instance, maybe you'd be better off quoting from the "horses mouth" rather than from something known as being occasionally less reliable!

http://www.mtu-online.com/mtu/news/detail/140_mtu_powerpacks_from_rolls_royce_for_caf_regional_trains_in_the_north_of_england/cHash/00a787df5fee65cf0235e2a636fd6213/?no_cache=1

 

[craigybagel]

There's a 158 using a Voith Diwa gearbox which isn't next generation so much as different generation - it's usually used in buses but it's expected that it'll be more efficient in trips with frequent stops than the usual Voith hydrodynamic transmissions which depend on torque converters and fluid couplings whereas the Diwa unit uses mechanical drive in the higher gears.

158834 at ATW has the 4 speed Voith DIWA. There is also 158885 at SWT with a 6 speed ZF Ecomat.

 

[1179_Clee2]

New RAIL magazine 823

Northern's first new DMU should be on test at Velin in the Czech Republic this time next year (March 14th)
The new DMU's feature MTU engines and six speed epicyclic gearboxes with retarders from ZF, which also supplies their final drive and reverser (current Northern units have three speed hydraulic transmission)
The six speed boxes will be more fuel efficient. their 1,600 litre fuel tank gives a range of 1,250 miles
The DMU's are being assembled in Irun from bodyshells made in Zaragoza and bogies and wheelsets made in Beasain

 

[D365]

The DMU's are being assembled in Irun from bodyshells made in Zaragoza and bogies and wheelsets made in Beasain

Hope it's not just me who thought that was meant to read Iran!

Then again, I doubt they'd ever forgive us for the Class 141s

 

[superkev]

New RAIL magazine 823

Northern's first new DMU should be on test at Velin in the Czech Republic this time next year (March 14th)
The new DMU's feature MTU engines and six speed epicyclic gearboxes with retarders from ZF, which also supplies their final drive and reverser (current Northern units have three speed hydraulic transmission)
The six speed boxes will be more fuel efficient. their 1,600 litre fuel tank gives a range of 1,250 miles
The DMU's are being assembled in Irun from bodyshells made in Zaragoza and bogies and wheelsets made in Beasain

Thanks most interesting. The Voith 211 transmission used in the 14x and 15x is 2 speed.
The tpe 185's are 3 speed I believe.
K

 

[najaB]

Thanks most interesting. The Voith 211 transmission used in the 14x and 15x is 2 speed.
The tpe 185's are 3 speed I believe.
K

With six gears there is more chance it'll actually be in the right one, as long as they don't spend all their time hunting between gears like a 1980s automatic car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 172s have this style of gearbox and seem to work fine, though it does make the unit sound and feel like a bus (just as the 101s etc did before).

 

[TH172341]

Yeah the 172s have this sort of gearbox and work very well on the whole. Improvements made since their introduction have made it much more refined and smoother I've found, and the MTU engine is fairly quiet.

 

[ac6000cw]

The 172s have this style of gearbox and seem to work fine, though it does make the unit sound and feel like a bus (just as the 101s etc did before).

Yes, it's interesting how the wheel has come full circle in 60 years, from epicyclic gearbox + fluid coupling to multi-speed hydraulic to epicyclic gearbox + torque converter. Except of course that the 1950s/60s version was a manually controlled transmission (like some buses of the same period - a clutch-less manual gearbox).

 

[Billy A]

Thanks most interesting. The Voith 211 transmission used in the 14x and 15x is 2 speed.
The tpe 185's are 3 speed I believe.
K

Strange beasts, Voith hydrodynamic gearboxes. Three speed versions have only two gears. First speed involves a loose torque converter driving low gear, second consists of draining the converter and filing a fluid coupling which drives the same gear but with less slip and third speed uses another fluid coupling driving high gear. No friction materials and little to wear then.
They also do a shunter version which has two speeds (and one gear) in each direction, so no reverser needed and you can use the other direction as a retarder.