Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[Mordac]

You may be right, Kinda reminds me on the HST and 222 which were capable of 125mph but the MML was only upto 110mph back then. The only section on the WCML i reckon would be possible for non tilt at 125mph would be Tring - Wolverton, Rugby - South of Atherstone, Crewe - North of Acton Bridge, Wigan - Preston and Preston - South of Lancaster.

Carlisle to at least Quintishil looks doable too, at least to my non-expert eye!

 

[pemma]

There's no technical reason why the straighter sections of the WCML couldn't be upgraded for higher speeds by non-tilting stock.

As I've mentioned already First reportedly included non-tilting Civities running at up to 115mph between Birmingham and Scotland in their West Coast franchise bid.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As I've mentioned already First reportedly included non-tilting Civities running at up to 115mph between Birmingham and Scotland in their West Coast franchise bid.

I think that's because the Civities will be Euro-certified by CAF for 190km/h (118mph) running, which appears to be the new EMU standard.
Roger Ford thinks this will be interpreted as 115mph by Network Rail.

However, whether they will allow anything more than 110mph (non-tilt) on the WCML is doubtful.
110 is the long-standing PSR for the WCML, since the introduction of Class 87s.

The OHLE for higher (EPS) speeds is also optimised for use by 390s, with their special pantographs.
I don't think you can just wind up the operational speed just because the track might be capable of supporting more than 110.

 

[najaB]

The OHLE for higher (EPS) speeds is also optimised for use by 390s, with their special pantographs.

First I've heard of this - how is it optimised, how are they different? (That's a genuine question, btw).

 

[Prestige15]

I think that's because the Civities will be Euro-certified by CAF for 190km/h (118mph) running, which appears to be the new EMU standard.
Roger Ford thinks this will be interpreted as 115mph by Network Rail.

However, whether they will allow anything more than 110mph (non-tilt) on the WCML is doubtful.
110 is the long-standing PSR for the WCML, since the introduction of Class 87s.

The OHLE for higher (EPS) speeds is also optimised for use by 390s, with their special pantographs.
I don't think you can just wind up the operational speed just because the track might be capable of supporting more than 110.

I read some magazine years ago and i remember a class 87 was recorded while on passenger service doing 118mph at Brock (North of preston).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that's because the Civities will be Euro-certified by CAF for 190km/h (118mph) running, which appears to be the new EMU standard.

Except CAF are stating 200km/h - or is that just their design speed, not the speed they will be allowed on the UK system?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

First I've heard of this - how is it optimised, how are they different? (That's a genuine question, btw).

The Fast line OHLE was repositioned during WCRM for the higher speeds with tilt (specifically for 390s).
The 390s have a dynamic pantograph system which compensates for the tilt.
390s are not allowed to exceed 110mph if tilt is not functioning.
So my understanding is that if you don't have the tilt capability, or the dynamic pantograph, or TASS, you are limited to 110mph.
There may also be limitations on using multiple pantographs, which don't apply to 390s with a single pantograph.

That's my understanding anyway.

 

[pemma]

However, whether they will allow anything more than 110mph (non-tilt) on the WCML is doubtful.

There's also been talk of Pendolinos being allowed to run at 130mph on the WCML in the future. I can't see that happening and the option of 115mph for non-tilting stock not happening.

 

[edwin_m]

The Fast line OHLE was repositioned during WCRM for the higher speeds with tilt (specifically for 390s).
The 390s have a dynamic pantograph system which compensates for the tilt.
390s are not allowed to exceed 110mph if tilt is not functioning.
So my understanding is that if you don't have the tilt capability, or the dynamic pantograph, or TASS, you are limited to 110mph.
There may also be limitations on using multiple pantographs, which don't apply to 390s with a single pantograph.

That's my understanding anyway.

As far as I know the dynamic pantograph only compensates for the tilt. Effectively it moves the pan sideways on a curved runner (thus tilting it also) to put it back where it would have been if the bodyshell supporting it hadn't tilted. So a non-tilting train with a normal pantograph should have exactly the same interface to the wire but at a lower speed.

The hazard-based justification for TASS is not immediately obvious but I think it's to do with the potential for driver confusion if the Pendolino sometimes doesn't have tilt enabled and if so must obey a lower set of speed restrictions. If this is the case then the hazard doesn't arise on a train with no tilt. And even otherwise, TASS is an open standard based on ERTMS equipment so there's nothing to stop a non-Alstom train being equipped with it.

Multiple pantographs could be a problem - possibly some OLE alterations needed on any sections that might be increased above 110mph.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

However, whether they will allow anything more than 110mph (non-tilt) on the WCML is doubtful.
110 is the long-standing PSR for the WCML, since the introduction of Class 87s.

Not quite. Class 87 was introduced from 1973 and most definitely had a maximum service speed of 100mph. That they were capable of more is not in doubt but that was the official maximum. Scheduled 110mph running came somewhat later, round about the time that Class 90 and Mk III DVTs were delivered so about 1988. [/OT pedantry]

 

[TRAX]

190km/h (118mph) running, which appears to be the new EMU standard.

Not really. On the Mainland the standard is still 160 km/h, with the higher step being 200 km/h. There is hardly anything in between, and if there is an intermediate speed it'll be 180. Speeds with an uneven second digit aren't considered standard on the Mainland. We usually set standards at 120, 140, 160, 180, 200..., almost always bypassing 130, 150, 170, 190...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not really. On the Mainland the standard is still 160 km/h, with the higher step being 200 km/h. There is hardly anything in between, and if there is an intermediate speed it'll be 180. Speeds with an uneven second digit aren't considered standard on the Mainland. We usually set standards at 120, 140, 160, 180, 200..., almost always bypassing 130, 150, 170, 190...

The CAF technical sheet for Civity describes it as a 160km/h design, "adaptable to 200km/h".
They sound like weasel words to me!

I was on ICE-Ts last week rated at 230km/h.
My mention of 190km/h and 115mph came from a piece by Roger Ford, I think related to the Siemens Desiro mainline range (not the City version).
Although the Siemens spec sheet makes no mention of speeds above 160km/h.

 

[childwallblues]

Where will the 195s and 331s be maintained?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Where will the 195s and 331s be maintained?

"At existing depots" was the only remark made at the time of the order.
That was before CAF said they would be setting up a UK support site somewhere (location still not decided, I think).

TPE has contracted Alstom to maintain their WCML Civitys, at Longsight and Edge Hill (also Polmadie), together with their CAF LHCS.

 

[childwallblues]

"At existing depots" was the only remark made at the time of the order.
That was before CAF said they would be setting up a UK support site somewhere (location still not decided, I think).

TPE has contracted Alstom to maintain their WCML Civitys, at Longsight and Edge Hill (also Polmadie), together with their CAF LHCS.

Thank you.

 

[notlob.divad]

"At existing depots" was the only remark made at the time of the order.
That was before CAF said they would be setting up a UK support site somewhere (location still not decided, I think).

TPE has contracted Alstom to maintain their WCML Civitys, at Longsight and Edge Hill (also Polmadie), together with their CAF LHCS.

I have thought about this a few times with Alstom opening their new facility in Halton I wonder if the Edge Hill Facility might become devoted to the TPE sets with the Pendolinos going to the new facility.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Why do Alstom Maintain Caf stock are they interlinked?

(They maintain the Sydney light rail Trams)

 

[pemma]

Why do Alstom Maintain Caf stock are they interlinked?

(They maintain the Sydney light rail Trams)

CAF don't really want to do maintenance of UK trains even if they built them and when First looked for companies interested in maintaining their new trains Alstom were interested.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"At existing depots" was the only remark made at the time of the order.
That was before CAF said they would be setting up a UK support site somewhere (location still not decided, I think).

Based on what I've heard that would be for assembling trains and heavy maintenance rather than somewhere the new trains would be all the time. There's rumours CAF have looked at a site in Coventry - so obviously Northern units wouldn't be based there!

 

[WatcherZero]

Alstom are one of the few manufacturers nowadays that actively seek out traincare work, even on other manufacturers stock. Most only want to provide ongoing tech support.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Alstom are one of the few manufacturers nowadays that actively seek out traincare work, even on other manufacturers stock. Most only want to provide ongoing tech support.

Alstom works with CAF on some of their builds, including providing the traction package for some EMUs.
Nothing has been said yet about that for the UK builds, but if Alstom has any part in this it would make sense for them to maintain the trains as they have a strong UK support base.

 

[superkev]

Pity that they are not building new depots as with some other new trains.
To me at least Neville hill is old and way past its best and would also be probably better to the west of the station.
K

 

[1179_Clee2]

Anybody any idea of when construction of the 195's or the 331's are going to start?
The LCHC for Scotrail and Transpennine was started several months ago?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Anybody any idea of when construction of the 195's or the 331's are going to start?
The LCHC for Scotrail and Transpennine was started several months ago?

I haven't heard anything either - does anybody have an update?

 

[43096]

Anybody any idea of when construction of the 195's or the 331's are going to start?

The LCHC for Scotrail and Transpennine was started several months ago?

I assume you mean Caledonian Sleeper rather than ScotRail.

 

[pemma]

Production of the first carriage has started: https://twitter.com/0502gt/status/825089067150884864?s=09

 

[Mikey C]

Any news on CAF's proposed UK assembly plant?

It'll need to be built well in advance of any trains being assembled there

 

[WatcherZero]

Any news on CAF's proposed UK assembly plant?

It'll need to be built well in advance of any trains being assembled there

Last update was September when they said they would choose a site in the next couple of weeks and it would be up and running by Spring 2018.

Will take them about a year to build a plant with planning permission so they should be making an application somewhere soon.

 

[47802]

Last update was September when they said they would choose a site in the next couple of weeks and it would be up and running by Spring 2018.

Will take them about a year to build a plant with planning permission so they should be making an application somewhere soon.

But what trains will they be building there? are not the Northern and TPE trains being built in Spain? so unless or until they get another order it seems a bit pointless.

They didn't get the Merseyrail order, I would imagine assembling in the UK is in the Tube train bid, so I can see them at least looking for a site but actually building one is another matter.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I can only think this is connected with the expectation that CAF would maintain the trains for Northern. I know this was likely to be done by some company other than CAF but on behalf of CAF. Certainly not maintained by the Northern TOC. But I cannot recall whether this has been sorted out so I could be wildly out of date .

 

[pemma]

But what trains will they be building there? are not the Northern and TPE trains being built in Spain?

CAF were only able to commit to trains being delivered in 2018 because they had a facility in Spain with no future work.