Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[darylyates17]

Does anyone have any idea what the engines are gonna be on the Diesel 195s? I have a feeling CAF will use MTU engines

 

[samuelmorris]

looking at the pics, there are a couple of things that are not the norm on UK rolling stock.
Panto on lead vehicle. Only Class 307's and 2 car 309's have had this.
The bogies look very inboard as the drivers steps are on the body not bogie.

Class 395 (extant) and 800/801/802 (upcoming) have a lead pantograph vehicle do they not?

The inboard bogies may well be an artifact of the render more than anything else. Loading gauge requirements are pretty strict.

 

[Mikey C]

Going back to the CAF train's ideally I would have preferred to have seen UK built trains or Siemens but at least Northern is getting some proper new trains which is an important point, rather than D trains, or upgraded Pacers or any other 3rd rate railway type nonsense.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...f-to-open-uk-rolling-stock-plant-in-2018.html

CAF will be opening a UK plant in 2018 as a result of these orders. I don't know what the local content will be, but it's something

 

[NotATrainspott]

There's now a page for the TPE LHCS too, although as with the Caledonian Sleeper there's no renders. The 22.2m carriage length necessitated by the sleeper operations has made its way to the TPE vehicles too.

 

[Greybeard33]

There's now a page for the TPE LHCS too, although as with the Caledonian Sleeper there's no renders. The 22.2m carriage length necessitated by the sleeper operations has made its way to the TPE vehicles too.

It says 22.2/22.37m - presumably the Driving Trailer being the longer length. The passenger capacity is "alkadorra" - varies between cars.

It also says they will be 6-car formations, plus loco. I thought they were previously announced as 5-car like the EMUs? http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=285

Edit: My bad. 5-car plus loco.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It says 22.2/22.37m - presumably the Driving Trailer being the longer length. The passenger capacity is "alkadorra" - varies between cars.

It also says they will be 6-car formations, plus loco. I thought they were previously announced as 5-car like the EMUs? http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=285

Loco plus 5 plus Dvt? Are they counting Dvt as a carriage?

 

[D365]

Loco plus 5 plus Dvt? Are they counting Dvt as a carriage?

Technically it's a Driving Trailer as it will have passenger accommodation, so it will count as part of the five coaches.

 

[507021]

Loco plus 5 plus Dvt? Are they counting Dvt as a carriage?

On the CAF website it says each carriage formation will consist of one first class carriage, two standard class carriages, one standard class carriage with guard accommodation and one standard class driving trailer, so five coaches per formation.

 

[47802]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...f-to-open-uk-rolling-stock-plant-in-2018.html

CAF will be opening a UK plant in 2018 as a result of these orders. I don't know what the local content will be, but it's something

I guess we will see on that one, I expect the main motivation for that is for the next gen tube stock bid, not sure how beneficial it will be to the UK in the long run may just force one of the other UK plants to close eventually.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the CAF website it says each carriage formation will consist of one first class carriage, two standard class carriages, one standard class carriage with guard accommodation and one standard class driving trailer, so five coaches per formation.

Disappointing that they're 22m - that'll be a bit down on capacity. I guess that is perhaps how they got a good deal, though.

Also quite interesting that there are 3 types of vehicle - to me logic would have been that the First Class and guard's accommodation would be in the driving trailer, thus making all other vehicles identical.

 

[507021]

Disappointing that they're 22m - that'll be a bit down on capacity. I guess that is perhaps how they got a good deal, though.

Also quite interesting that there are 3 types of vehicle - to me logic would have been that the First Class and guard's accommodation would be in the driving trailer, thus making all other vehicles identical.

I'd imagine it could be to do with the Caledonian Sleeper carriages being 22 metres long, although I could be wrong.

I'm looking forward to seeing a rendering of the new TPE coaches, if the latest rendering of the Class 331 is anything to go by then I think the driving trailers in particular will look really smart.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd imagine it could be to do with the Caledonian Sleeper carriages being 22 metres long, although I could be wrong.

I suspect it will be - but I'm surprised as I'd have thought the LHCS would be the same as the EMUs but with no traction equipment.

I do wonder if part of TPE's having found this a very cheap solution was because they were a follow-on order of some kind.

 

[samuelmorris]

it's just occured to me why I thought the front of the 331 looked familiar in the render - it reminds me of an updated 321 - the shape of the yellow section below the windscreen and around the light cluster...

The TPE unit renders are in a class of their own though, I'm very much looking forward to seeing those in the flesh.

 

[sprinterguy]

Disappointing that they're 22m - that'll be a bit down on capacity. I guess that is perhaps how they got a good deal, though.

The TPE franchise agreement states that the loco-hauled sets will have the same total number of seats as the EMUs (though less standing capacity), though rather less than the Bi-mode sets, which will have much longer carriages. I suppose there's a benefit to only losing space to a driving cab at one end.

Also quite interesting that there are 3 types of vehicle - to me logic would have been that the First Class and guard's accommodation would be in the driving trailer, thus making all other vehicles identical.

Hasn't it already been noted that the driving trailers will be delivered slightly later than the rest of the hauled stock? If so then your arrangement would initially leave the sets without either first class or guard's accommodation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

it's just occured to me why I thought the front of the 331 looked familiar in the render - it reminds me of an updated 321 - the shape of the yellow section below the windscreen and around the light cluster...

As D365 has noted the front end has a strong resemblance to the Stadler Flirt3 units entering service in various places in Western Europe, I don't personally see much similarity with a class 321 beyond an angled inner edge to the light clusters.

 

[pemma]

The Civity platform is a "Regional" one. It doesn't have any pretensions to be a high-speed unit.
A great deal would have to change to make it suitable for 140mph. No other model in the range so far has exceeded 160km/h.
The WCML units will only operate at 110mph, and they won't have ETCS.

First reportedly included the same type Civity option for Birmingham to Scotland in their West Coast franchise bid and apparently included a solution for non-tilting Civities to run at speeds of up to 115mph opposed to the current limit of 110mph.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The TPE franchise agreement states that the loco-hauled sets will have the same total number of seats as the EMUs (though less standing capacity), though rather less than the Bi-mode sets, which will have much longer carriages. I suppose there's a benefit to only losing space to a driving cab at one end.

As I posted further up the thread the CAF trains will get a lot more seats arranged in bays around tables than the Hitachi trains.

 

[Haydn1971]

As I posted further up the thread the CAF trains will get a lot more seats arranged in bays around tables than the Hitachi trains.

Do we know that for sure ? The IEP spec 800/801s we have seen seating plans for, but I don't recall seeing anything specifically for the 802s on either GWR or TPE

 

[pemma]

Do we know that for sure ? The IEP spec 800/801s we have seen seating plans for, but I don't recall seeing anything specifically for the 802s on either GWR or TPE

Why would First say at least 35% of seats at table bays on the bi-modes and at least 60% on the CAF sets if the plan was for the same level of bay seating on both? The TPE franchise agreement does specify a number of standard and first class seats for each type of train.

 

[ac6000cw]

Does anyone have any idea what the engines are gonna be on the Diesel 195s? I have a feeling CAF will use MTU engines

As the NIR 4000 series DMUs are MTU powered, it's a reasonable bet the 195s will use MTU as well.

 

[Mollman]

That's incorrect. DfT allowed LM to increase the number of 350/3s they received from 7 to 10 so that an internal cascade could cover Bromsgrove electrification without the need to receive further electric trains.

Porterbrook (who own the 319s and 323s) decided to not allow Northern bidders to have access to the 323s after the 31st December 2018. That decision was believed to be partly to get Northern bidders to take on more 319s and partly so that the next LM franchise had the option of taking on all the 323s from 1st January 2019. However, if that was the intention it has potentially backfired for Porterbrook as Arriva have ordered new 331s to replace the 323s. It remains to be seen if the winning LM bidder proposes making use of all the 323s from January 2019 - there's plenty of other EMU options they can propose as well.

Ok. Well at least it could mean that the Valley Line services could have better units than 315s!

 

[Prestige15]

If TPE 397 gonna have a 125 MPH top speed on the WCML, I'm guessing they are going to be a tilting train as im pretty sure the max speed for the whole WCML for non tilt is 110 MPH?

 

[childwallblues]

If TPE 397 gonna have a 125 MPH top speed on the WCML, I'm guessing they are going to be a tilting train as im pretty sure the max speed for the whole WCML for non tilt is 110 MPH?

Correct

 

[CosherB]

If TPE 397 gonna have a 125 MPH top speed on the WCML, I'm guessing they are going to be a tilting train as im pretty sure the max speed for the whole WCML for non tilt is 110 MPH?

If it runs at 125mph .... it could be a non-tilt 125mph capable design that is run at 110mph only.

 

[sprinterguy]

Correct

There has been no evidence to suggest that these will be tilting trains. The trains are part of CAF's Civity platform which I far as I know have not been developed with tilt in mind. "The lighter weight of the units" described by CAF would even possibly preclude the heavier bogies and tilt equipment necessary for tilting units. As CosherB point out, a unit being capable of 125mph and permitted to run at that speed in normal service are two very different things.

 

[Mordac]

I very much doubt the the 397s will tilt, as much as I'm annoyed by the decision, but there is at least one tilting Civity model: http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=221

 

[sprinterguy]

I very much doubt the the 397s will tilt, as much as I'm annoyed by the decision, but there is at least one tilting Civity model: http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=221

Oh, well I have at least been proven wrong on that (and I did look into it, honest, but missed that page ): There is indeed a "Civity Tilting System", though as you say, I don't expect the class 397s to include tilt, or else you would imagine that it would have been mentioned somewhere.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Oh, well I have at least been proven wrong on that (and I did look into it, honest, but missed that page ): There is indeed a "Civity Tilting System", though as you say, I don't expect the class 397s to include tilt, or else you would imagine that it would have been mentioned somewhere.

Tilting on the WCML means using Alstom's TASS system, as fitted to 390s and 221s and to the infrastructure itself.
I think we'd have heard if that system was to be supported by CAF's TPE EMUs.
The ITT didn't call for faster journey times than now, either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The units also don't appear to have a tilt profile.

The 125mph feature is clearly just for futureproofing.

 

[edwin_m]

There's no technical reason why the straighter sections of the WCML couldn't be upgraded for higher speeds by non-tilting stock.

 

[Prestige15]

If it runs at 125mph .... it could be a non-tilt 125mph capable design that is run at 110mph only.

You may be right, Kinda reminds me on the HST and 222 which were capable of 125mph but the MML was only upto 110mph back then. The only section on the WCML i reckon would be possible for non tilt at 125mph would be Tring - Wolverton, Rugby - South of Atherstone, Crewe - North of Acton Bridge, Wigan - Preston and Preston - South of Lancaster.

 

[TRAX]

The Civity UK front-end design is clearly inspired from the kiwi AM Class by the same manufacturer.