Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[NotATrainspott]

I am not entirely convinced by the ocean liner analogy - seems to me the reasons for travel by sleeper are different from a cruise, but it does prompt a thought. Accepting that travel via HS2 impacts mainly destinations south of Perth and if the Edinburgh and Glasgow services become (even more) uneconomic, what could be done with the spare rolling stock? Not sure if this has been covered in this thread before, but how about "cruise" services to Kyle, Mallaig and Thurso? The problem with a "cruise train" might be the need for high quality day cars to go with the sleepers.

PS - anyone know how the "Grand Hibernian" is doing?

It's the best analogy I can think of. The important thing is that people need to want to spend more money and time travelling than they absolutely have to. The sorts of people who would be happy with couchettes tend to want to save money regardless of the cost, so as soon as an alternative means of transport is available (e.g. sleeper coaches or budget airlines) they will jump. Business travellers tend to want to be able to sleep in their own bed at night so as soon as they're practically able to get home that night from a full day in London (including after-work socialising/client schoozing) they'll do so too. HS2 will close at 23:59 so it'll be possible leave Euston after 8 and get back to Glasgow or Edinburgh that night. The last daytime Glasgow train from Euston is currently 1930 which is cutting it a bit close for some business travellers. Since both cost-sensitive and business travellers will absolutely stop travelling on the sleeper, the only possible way of keeping it running is to focus on these leisure travellers. Rather nicely, these travellers may also be willing to pay a higher ticket price too, if the quality of the service increases. The cost of enhancing the service for these tourists will be lower than the increase in revenue you can get as a result.

 

[Jordeh]

It's the best analogy I can think of. The important thing is that people need to want to spend more money and time travelling than they absolutely have to. The sorts of people who would be happy with couchettes tend to want to save money regardless of the cost, so as soon as an alternative means of transport is available (e.g. sleeper coaches or budget airlines) they will jump. Business travellers tend to want to be able to sleep in their own bed at night so as soon as they're practically able to get home that night from a full day in London (including after-work socialising/client schoozing) they'll do so too. HS2 will close at 23:59 so it'll be possible leave Euston after 8 and get back to Glasgow or Edinburgh that night. The last daytime Glasgow train from Euston is currently 1930 which is cutting it a bit close for some business travellers. Since both cost-sensitive and business travellers will absolutely stop travelling on the sleeper, the only possible way of keeping it running is to focus on these leisure travellers. Rather nicely, these travellers may also be willing to pay a higher ticket price too, if the quality of the service increases. The cost of enhancing the service for these tourists will be lower than the increase in revenue you can get as a result.

You make a lot of good points, very interesting.

 

[47271]

It's the best analogy I can think of. The important thing is that people need to want to spend more money and time travelling than they absolutely have to. The sorts of people who would be happy with couchettes tend to want to save money regardless of the cost, so as soon as an alternative means of transport is available (e.g. sleeper coaches or budget airlines) they will jump. Business travellers tend to want to be able to sleep in their own bed at night so as soon as they're practically able to get home that night from a full day in London (including after-work socialising/client schoozing) they'll do so too. HS2 will close at 23:59 so it'll be possible leave Euston after 8 and get back to Glasgow or Edinburgh that night. The last daytime Glasgow train from Euston is currently 1930 which is cutting it a bit close for some business travellers. Since both cost-sensitive and business travellers will absolutely stop travelling on the sleeper, the only possible way of keeping it running is to focus on these leisure travellers. Rather nicely, these travellers may also be willing to pay a higher ticket price too, if the quality of the service increases. The cost of enhancing the service for these tourists will be lower than the increase in revenue you can get as a result.

The logic here works well for the Lowlander, and especially its Edinburgh section. No disrespect to Glasgow's thriving visitor market, but I'm not sure how much super premium overnight tourist business will ever materialise to and from that city. I foresee a lot of dynamic pricing at work...

However, the particular regular users I know, and those who are concerned about getting priced off the train, are Highlander passengers from Speyside and Perthshire. In their case any other means of getting to and from London other than on the sleeper is a gross inconvenience, but one that their employers will put them through if the cost of each single journey rises to more than that of a night in a decent central London hotel.

Bear in mind that they can be worth around £10k a year each to CS, some of them even more than that, and that's before you take their lounge spend into account.

Being prepared to lose this business, and to run winter trains near empty, strikes me as careless at the very best.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The logic here works well for the Lowlander, and especially its Edinburgh section. No disrespect to Glasgow's thriving visitor market, but I'm not sure how much super premium overnight tourist business will ever materialise to and from that city. I foresee a lot of dynamic pricing at work...

However, the particular regular users I know, and those who are concerned about getting priced off the train, are Highlander passengers from Speyside and Perthshire. In their case any other means of getting to and from London other than on the sleeper is a gross inconvenience, but one that their employers will put them through if the cost of each single journey rises to more than that of a night in a decent central London hotel.

Bear in mind that they can be worth around £10k a year each to CS, some of them even more than that, and that's before you take their lounge spend into account.

Being prepared to lose this business, and to run winter trains near empty, strikes me as careless at the very best.

You bring up an important point. If the sleeper ceases to be necessary for most business travellers, then the question is why it should continue to run as a franchised operation. The cruise-train leisure market might be better served by a fully private operation, like the Belmond Pullman, which wouldn't need to run during the low season. However, as you say there are still people in Scotland who would need the sleeper even after the city-dwellers can use high speed rail. Moving to a full commercial operation would mean harming these users and areas of the country.

How I see it is that the gradual shift from business to leisure travellers can still accommodate for these sorts of people. The numbers of people who would see the sleeper as a lifeline service would never be enough to justify the operation as a franchise. By encouraging cruise-train passengers, you can help make the sleeper worth running, and thus able to serve as a lifeline for certain highland areas. There will be a way of ensuring that ticket prices remain affordable for lifeline passengers while preventing leisure travellers from saving money - maybe a special railcard or season ticket? As the loadings and passenger types change, the way the train service runs could change as well. Maybe the 'lowland' train will also take the Aberdeen portion, allowing the Highland train to have space for both locals and leisure travellers? The lowland will only properly die when HS2 timings to Scotland are brought under 3 hours, at which point the capacity could be adjusted yet again.

 

[Marklund]

You bring up an important point. If the sleeper ceases to be necessary for most business travellers, then the question is why it should continue to run as a franchised operation. The cruise-train leisure market might be better served by a fully private operation, like the Belmond Pullman, which wouldn't need to run during the low season. However, as you say there are still people in Scotland who would need the sleeper even after the city-dwellers can use high speed rail. Moving to a full commercial operation would mean harming these users and areas of the country.

How I see it is that the gradual shift from business to leisure travellers can still accommodate for these sorts of people. The numbers of people who would see the sleeper as a lifeline service would never be enough to justify the operation as a franchise. By encouraging cruise-train passengers, you can help make the sleeper worth running, and thus able to serve as a lifeline for certain highland areas. There will be a way of ensuring that ticket prices remain affordable for lifeline passengers while preventing leisure travellers from saving money - maybe a special railcard or season ticket? As the loadings and passenger types change, the way the train service runs could change as well. Maybe the 'lowland' train will also take the Aberdeen portion, allowing the Highland train to have space for both locals and leisure travellers? The lowland will only properly die when HS2 timings to Scotland are brought under 3 hours, at which point the capacity could be adjusted yet again.

The problem with going after the leisure market is the increased cost of getting them on board in the first place.

Until HS2 is built, hoping to run the sleeper on the shortbread tin model you are proposing is a major loser in the winter months.

The last time I went north in the winter, I had the choice of a whole carriage to pick my berth on the day of travel.
Ramping up the price, and hoping a railcard will retain users isn't going to help.

 

[47271]

There will be a way of ensuring that ticket prices remain affordable for lifeline passengers while preventing leisure travellers from saving money - maybe a special railcard or season ticket?

Ask the occupants of the northbound Inverness lounge car on a Thursday night and I think they'll tell you that it's called the Flexipass at its existing price. [emoji38]

 

[Shinkansenfan]

I'm not an expert on this but this explanation would seem to fit with the real world. Pod flatbeds aren't really a thing on trains as far as I'm aware and they may have found that they're just not worth it. Also a possibility is the economics, as they may have found that the possible revenue per carriage with flatbeds wouldn't be high enough to justify it. Flat beds might not be better enough than a normal seat to justify a much larger ticket price but they will take up a considerable amount of carriage space. Airlines are currently ripping out first class and replacing it with business class for that reason - better to have 3x as many $5,000 tickets as 1x as many $10,000 tickets.

Various posts have mentioned the lack of flatbed pods on trains. They do exit.

East Japan Railways has flatbed pods in their Gran Class service (Shinkansen between Tokyo and Shin-Hakkodate).

Many of the Chinese high speed trains also offer flatbed pods, such as between Beijing and Shenzen, Beijing and Shanghai-- to name just a couple of routes.

The reason why many airlines have eliminated First Class is that the comfort difference between First Class and Business Class has narrowed dramatically.

For instance, on British, Lufthansa, Air France, American, United, Emirates, Cathay Pacific, Singapore (to name a few)--they all offer flatbed seating in both First and Business Class. Once upon a time, flatbed seating was only offered in First Class. As this amenity has also migrated to Business Class, the comfort factor difference between the two classes has been greatly reduced.

Another reason for the demise of First Class is that many corporations will not allow travel in that class, diminishing number of potential customers. In recognition of this reality, SAS, Virgin, Swiss International, Air New Zealand currently offer Business Class as their highest class of service.

 

[Scotrail84]

1M16 arrived 65 early in Euston this morning.

 

[TimboM]

1M16 arrived 65 early in Euston this morning.

Had a Class 90 on it, that's why

And that was after arriving 79E at Wembley for the reverse and spending longer there than planned waiting for a path into Euston I suspect (only the
Slows were in operation today it looked like).

Class 92 hauled 1M11 managed to arrive 33E. Some pretty significant timetable "padding" for the switch from ECML to WCML and reverse at Wembley.

 

[cf111]

I believe that the Aberdeen to Lewick ferry service also offers Pods as an alternative to a berth.
I think if they wanted to they could find a way to do it, but for whatever reason they have decided not to.
Sam

The pods on the north boats are OK but they're basically giant reclining armchairs with charging points. They don't lie flat but if you can sleep at an angle then they will do for £18.

 

[TimboM]

A lot of the discussion here has been about whether pods would be feasible or not (and could meet necessary requirements).

I believe they could have - as most things are possible with enough time, effort and money. However, I expect it is/was more a case that the time (and money?) it would've taken to design a whole new concept (for UK rail travel) and get it thoroughly tested/approved (including risk it may not be approved) was not palatable - especially given it is already going to be 3 years into the contract before the new stock is in service.

i.e. I'd suspect the health and safety barrier isn't necessarily an outright "no" - just too large an obstacle to overcome in the time/budget available.

 

[robertclark125]

Slighlty off topic, but I read somewhere that there was a plan, when the new mk5 stock arrives, that some of the older coaches could be used on an internal service. One suggestion seemed to be Thurso and Wick to Edinburgh. Is there any more on this?

 

[najaB]

One suggestion seemed to be Thurso and Wick to Edinburgh. Is there any more on this?

There was discussion of this upthread, as well as in its own thread a little later. To date there's been nothing solid come of it (and to be honest I don't expect that there ever will be).

 

[Marklund]

A lot of the discussion here has been about whether pods would be feasible or not (and could meet necessary requirements).

I believe they could have - as most things are possible with enough time, effort and money. However, I expect it is/was more a case that the time (and money?) it would've taken to design a whole new concept (for UK rail travel) and get it thoroughly tested/approved (including risk it may not be approved) was not palatable - especially given it is already going to be 3 years into the contract before the new stock is in service.

i.e. I'd suspect the health and safety barrier isn't necessarily an outright "no" - just too large an obstacle to overcome in the time/budget available.

With the Scottish Government claiming that there would be at the franchise announcement, it would be interesting to see how much of a definite it is in the franchise, and what has been agreed between Serco and TS since it doesn't seem to be happening.
If I could be bothered, a FoI request in to the lack of pods would be revealing.

 

[Scotrail84]

Had a Class 90 on it, that's why

And that was after arriving 79E at Wembley for the reverse and spending longer there than planned waiting for a path into Euston I suspect (only the
Slows were in operation today it looked like).

Class 92 hauled 1M11 managed to arrive 33E. Some pretty significant timetable "padding" for the switch from ECML to WCML and reverse at Wembley.

More to do with it being a bank holiday and little traffic to contend with.

 

[Sarahs_Railway]

This service came through Kinghorn on time with a DB Schenker liveried class 67 - 67 013 - leading the way just a couple of minutes behind the Aberdeen section headed by 73 966 (I think - tried to photograph them and got it wrong big time.) Posted some photos of Caley Sleeper locos at Edinburgh this morning at the link below. Looked like the ECS working of the Lowland was in the hands of a Class 73 whilst the 92's sat around!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149563882@N07/

 

[43096]

Looked like the ECS working of the Lowland was in the hands of a Class 73 whilst the 92's sat around!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149563882@N07/

ECS off the lowland sleeper had to be diesel hauled as it was routed via Shotts. Nothing to do with the 92s.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just a quick question I'm wondering if anyone knows if Scotrail guards are still working portions of the Highland Sleeper?

This was often useful as it meant there could be guaranteed connections off some Scotrail services. One example I can recall is the Fort William portion as the guard off the Mallaig train arriving about fifteen minutes before departure then worked the Sleeper.

 

[Sarahs_Railway]

Thank you 43 096- I thought it was unusual to see the ECS being diesel hauled but I am new to all this. Just for the record and slightly off topic - Colas 47 or 57 - didn't catch the number came thru at same time hauling SRPS to Fort William. Noticed CS Class 86 (86 401?) - VTEC 125 was too fast to read it) at Craigentinny.

 

[TimboM]

This service came through Kinghorn on time with a DB Schenker liveried class 67 - 67 013 - leading the way just a couple of minutes behind the Aberdeen section headed by 73 966 (I think - tried to photograph them and got it wrong big time.) Posted some photos of Caley Sleeper locos at Edinburgh this morning at the link below. Looked like the ECS working of the Lowland was in the hands of a Class 73 whilst the 92's sat around!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149563882@N07/

ECS off the lowland sleeper had to be diesel hauled as it was routed via Shotts. Nothing to do with the 92s.

As 43096 says, the electrified route between Edinburgh and Glasgow was out of action for engineering works last night, so I believe the diesel traction to get everything in the right place was as follows:

Last night (Sunday):
- 92038 hauled the Glasgow Lowlander portion ECS into Glasgow with 73970 (on south-end) which then took the portion forward to Edinburgh.
- Meanwhile, Colas 'Duff' 47749 (on a swap/loan to GBRf) took the Edinburgh portion ECS from Polmadie to Waverley.
- 92014 then took the whole train forward from EDB to Euston (via ECML)

- 73970 (having brought in the Glasgow portion) then took the northbound Highlander Aberdeen portion from Edinburgh.
- 73966 had brought the southbound portion into Edinburgh... so you were right [It then went on to take the northbound Fort William portion]

This morning (Monday):
- 92033 brought the Lowlander up from Euston (with 86101 leading the first leg to Wembley before the reverse to get on to the ECML).
- Due to the engineering works, 92033 was detached at Edinburgh (which is why you've got your photos of it) and 47749 took the Glasgow portion on to Glasgow
- 92038 then came in to Glasgow from Polmadie to take the Glasgow portion ECS (+47749) back to Polmadie
- 73968 (which had worked the southbound Highlander portion from Fort William to Edinburgh the previous night) then took the Lowlander Edinburgh portion ECS back to Polmadie

- 92010 brought the Highlander up from Euston (with 90016 assisting to Wembley). It was then detached at Edinburgh (as is normal practice) - hence why you saw that there too. As usual, the Highlander then split 3 ways with the 67 and 73/9s taking the north of Edinburgh sections.

- The Inverness Highlander portion was kept nice and simple - 67013 worked it both ways (as per your pic at Kinghorn).


It's the same engineering works tonight, so will be a similar scenario - i.e. 92038 working the Glasgow ECS, 47739 and 73/9s on the various Glasgow/Polmadie to Edinburgh workings (Lowlander + ECS), with the two 92s stabled in Edinburgh (92010 and 92033) working the 'main' trains south from Edinburgh.

Simple eh...?

 

[TimboM]

Thank you 43 096- I thought it was unusual to see the ECS being diesel hauled but I am new to all this. Just for the record and slightly off topic - Colas 47 or 57 - didn't catch the number came thru at same time hauling SRPS to Fort William. Noticed CS Class 86 (86 401?) - VTEC 125 was too fast to read it) at Craigentinny.

It was 47739 hauling SRPS to Fort William last night. Had been on various sleeper duties (mostly ECS) for a few weeks (with a couple of engineers trains thrown in), but I believe 47749 is now replacing it.

The Colas 47s are being loaned to GBRf in exchange for Colas having use of a couple of GBRf 66s as required.

86401 Mons Meg was indeed what you saw at Craigentinny. It's been working the Glasgow Lowlander ECS moves for several weeks, but went across to Craigentinny middle of last week - presumably for some attention (routine or otherwise) that cannot be done at Polmadie (where it is usually based).


P.S. You are correct that the (Edinburgh portion) ECS is usually electric. The 'standard' approach is that one loco (typically one of the hired-in Freightliner Class 90s in recent weeks) takes the ECS in the evening from Polmadie to Waverley. It then works the Lowlander Edinburgh portion to Carstairs, where the coaches are attached to the Glasgow portion and the "Glasgow loco" takes the whole train forward. The "Edinburgh loco" then waits in Carstairs overnight and picks up the Edinburgh portion from the northbound Lowlander, and takes this into Edinburgh. The same loco then takes the ECS back to Polmadie for servicing etc. ready to do it all again the next night.

 

[Sarahs_Railway]

Thank you Timbo - you are a mine of information! Plus you have proved that my eyesight aint as bad as I thought it was! Off topic again I saw lots of cameras pointing south from Berwick station. Quick check of RTT revealed a Peterborough to Edinburgh diesel hauled. I was rather surprised to pass that famous diesel - A1 Peppercorn - Tornado - looking rather resplendent in green these days! Also Royal Scotsman Class 66's top and tailing a quite resplendent looking rake of coaches at Craigentinny.

 

[TimboM]

Thank you Timbo - you are a mine of information! Plus you have proved that my eyesight aint as bad as I thought it was! Off topic again I saw lots of cameras pointing south from Berwick station. Quick check of RTT revealed a Peterborough to Edinburgh diesel hauled. I was rather surprised to pass that famous diesel - A1 Peppercorn - Tornado - looking rather resplendent in green these days! Also Royal Scotsman Class 66's top and tailing a quite resplendent looking rake of coaches at Craigentinny.

Network Rail's system (and hence the data RTT gets from it) doesn't have "steam", so they always show as "diesels".

The Belmond Royal Scotsman train is very smart - costs thousands for a trip on it though. Have a Google to see what it's like inside...

GBRf have the haulage contract and have painted 66743 and 66746 in the livery.

To get this back on topic, (at least) one of those 66s hauled the Sleeper a few months back, making for an interesting combination of prestigious Scottish liveries.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think for now Scotrail guards are still working but not long now from what Iv heard. Maybe someone like Scotrail84 can enlighten us?

 

[Clansman]

I think for now Scotrail guards are still working but not long now from what Iv heard. Maybe someone like Scotrail84 can enlighten us?

Scotrail guards will continue to work them until at least the Summer, and probably up until October when the Mk5s come.

Trainee Serco guards will assist the Scotrail guards, who will delegate duties to them at certain intervals en route - and also at the request of their supervisors when booking on to work the Sleeper.

 

[Scotrail84]

Scotrail guards will continue to work them until at least the Summer, and probably up until October when the Mk5s come.

Trainee Serco guards will assist the Scotrail guards, who will delegate duties to them at certain intervals en route - and also at the request of their supervisors when booking on to work the Sleeper.

Nope, Serco men take over from the may timetable change. That's the plan.

MK5s will not be in operation until at least next April.

 

[Clansman]

Nope, Serco men take over from the may timetable change. That's the plan.

MK5s will not be in operation until at least next April.

I knew I was dodgy with the Serco men starting - with the Mk5s I was meaning staff training when the first coaches are due in the UK.

Although I'm right in saying that Scotrail guards were mentoring the Serco gaurds, as there was a notice in the Perth bothy saying so.

 

[Scotrail84]

I knew I was dodgy with the Serco men starting - with the Mk5s I was meaning staff training when the first coaches are due in the UK.

Although I'm right in saying that Scotrail guards were mentoring the Serco gaurds, as there was a notice in the Perth bothy saying so.

Not as far as I'm aware they've not, some Serco men transferred from ScotRail and they have been mentoring the new starts that came in from the street as the staff that transferred previously worked the sleepers.

There has also been no mention of when staff training will commence either.

 

[marks87]

There was discussion of this upthread, as well as in its own thread a little later. To date there's been nothing solid come of it (and to be honest I don't expect that there ever will be).

A plan or internet nonsense from fantasists? My money is on the second option.

It was, apparently, mentioned by industry insiders as well not just on Internet forums.

And, coincidentally, the Press and Journal leads with this story this morning.

I've posted a link to the article on the other thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2976621#post2976621

 

[fgwrich]

Small update to one of the posts above, 47749 hauled 86401 and the empties on 5B26 Edinburgh Waverley - Polmadie this morning. The confirmed as 86 coming back after an exam at Craigentinny.