Caledonian Sleeper Mk5 Discussion

[cj_1985]

They still exist... as the Virgin Thunderbirds!! (...but now operated by DRS who supply the Thunderbird contract to VTWC). They have Dellners but at the wrong height I believe - the Mk5 Dellners are at a specific/non-standard height which makes them compatible with not a lot other than the specifically modified 92s and 73/9s as far as I'm aware.

The 57s also wouldn't have near enough ETS power for a Load 16 of the new Mk5s - not sure of the exact figure but I have vague recollections of it needing an ETH index in the region of 130-150, which is significantly above any locomotive in the UK other than a 92 (ETH Index 180 on A/C). I'm not sure how suitable they'd be gauging-wise for the West Highland Line etc. They also belong to DRS, not GBRf...

AIUI the 57/3s, Pendolino's, Eurostars, 22X's (and presumably the 800s), have their dellner couplers set at a height set by the EEC/EU as height for Intercity/High speed stock. All to do with interoperability or some such bullsh*t. The theory being that a 390 from here could go through the tunnel and couple up to a SNCF TGV. So the 220/221 and 390s couplers are not set solely at the same height so they can rescue one another

 

[TimboM]

AIUI the 57/3s, Pendolino's, Eurostars, 22X's (and presumably the 800s), have their dellner couplers set at a height set by the EEC/EU as height for Intercity/High speed stock. All to do with interoperability or some such bullsh*t. The theory being that a 390 from here could go through the tunnel and couple up to a SNCF TGV. So the 220/221 and 390s couplers are not set solely at the same height so they can rescue one another

...and that height is different from (other) multiple unit stock I believe, which in turn is different from the new Mk5s...!!

 

[cj_1985]

...and that height is different from (other) multiple unit stock I believe, which in turn is different from the new Mk5s...!!

Yup... does make me wonder why not have the mk5 couplers set to one of the standard heights

 

[BRX]

All to do with interoperability or some such bullsh*t.

As a basic principle, interoperability sounds to me like a very sensible thing!

 

[James James]

Yes, they could, except for one thing. The politics driving the funding of the new stock.

If we end up with all of Brexit, IndyRef2, and Scotentry, there could be some political drive for an Edinburgh-Brussels connection in the long-term future. Might perhaps need external padlocks and border guards for the Gretna to Calais portion...

 

[Highland37]

If we end up with all of Brexit, IndyRef2, and Scotentry, there could be some political drive for an Edinburgh-Brussels connection in the long-term future. Might perhaps need external padlocks and border guards for the Gretna to Calais portion...

Ha you might not be far off there.

 

[bastien]

If we end up with all of Brexit, IndyRef2, and Scotentry, there could be some political drive for an Edinburgh-Brussels connection in the long-term future. Might perhaps need external padlocks and border guards for the Gretna to Calais portion...

Did someone say "train ferry"

 

[ScottDarg]

Another 4 on delivery today using 6X06 05:04 Tees Dock - Polmadie.

Freightliners 66414 doing the honours using hopper wagons as barrier vehicles (not my pics): https://flic.kr/p/KfeSNP https://flic.kr/p/KfeWqD

 

[cj_1985]

Can someone explain why FL are doing these moves.

I thought it was just the pre-series stock that were being moved by a 3rd party

 

[captainbigun]

As FL have been contracted by SERCO. Not sure why everyone assumed GB would do the moves. Deliveries are a separate contract, direct with SERCO.

 

[gsnedders]

As FL have been contracted by SERCO. Not sure why everyone assumed GB would do the moves. Deliveries are a separate contract, direct with SERCO.

Contracted by Serco or by CAF?

 

[captainbigun]

Sorry, yes, CAF. Point being that it is nothing to do with day to day delivery of the sleeper services.

 

[TimboM]

More specifically CAF use a logistics provider for the deliveries, who in turn already sub-contract their rail moves to Freightliner.

It’s CAF’s job to deliver the goods to Serco c/o Polmadie - bit like when you buy something on-line you don’t get to pick whether it’s DPD, DHL, UK Mail, Yodel etc - it’s the courier firm the supplier has a contract with).

Once they’re at Polmadie it’s then over to Serco/GBRf for the testing etc.

 

[mullac30]

Pics of the partially finished Mk5 interiors from a CS presentation on the HITRANS website:
Looks smart!

 

[HSTEd]

Did anyone ever release the approximate price per vehicle for the Mark 5s/Mark 5As to the press?

 

[TimboM]

Did anyone ever release the approximate price per vehicle for the Mark 5s/Mark 5As to the press?

Front page of the website for the new trains http://newtrains.sleeper.scot/ talks about an investment of "over £100m" that's made the new stock possible.

Further down the same page, it has a quote from the Serco Chairman saying "we will introduce a brand new £150 million fleet of trains..." Whether that's a PR figure adding in other costs such as the loco hire/modifications, or it means the Transport Scotland/DfT are investing £100m+ and Serco are investing the rest, I'm not sure - but it's somewhat higher than the other figure a few rows above it!

Either way, the costs of the new Sleeper Mk5s are in the region of £100m-£150m for a fleet of 75 coaches, so somewhere in the region of £1.5m-£2m/coach on average.

I suspect the Mk5a stock for TPE is somewhat cheaper as less variants and less complexity (no berths, showers etc.) They do have the DBSO / "DVT"s cars though which presumably are a fair bit more per unit.

 

[Marklund]

Pics of the partially finished Mk5 interiors from a CS presentation on the HITRANS website:
Looks smart!

Does look nice, but the third picture is no more than a Mark 3 berth done nicely.
Still unconvinced with storage space for anything resembling a large suitcase, or what the other half would call a small carry-on case!

 

[Christmas]

Does look nice, but the third picture is no more than a Mark 3 berth done nicely.
Still unconvinced with storage space for anything resembling a large suitcase, or what the other half would call a small carry-on case!

And the Mk3 has the useful shelf and sink unit cover these seem to lack at the moment. The sink looks like it could hold a carry on case quite well though!

 

[Marklund]

Well yes!
And as for the tap in front of the window blind...
I'm still thinking from the photos seen so far, that whoever designed the Mark 3 made a very good use of a small space, this one, not so much.

 

[TimboM]

And the Mk3 has the useful shelf and sink unit cover these seem to lack at the moment. The sink looks like it could hold a carry on case quite well though!

Looks like there's potentially a pull-out shelf/tray under the sink?

 

[Christmas]

Looks like there's potentially a pull-out shelf/tray under the sink?

Yes and it looks very flimsy.

 

[47271]

The mk3 sleeper compartment in full working order is a masterpiece of compact and flexible design, robust manufacture, smooth and quiet running, fire safety, and temperature control. The lack of a few ensuite WCs is their only real shortcoming in the modern age. That the fittings are only really to start to fall apart now after 37 or so years is a massive tribute to British Rail's standards of engineering. It's like someone knew that they were working towards 2018/9 as the point of expiry.

As for the new builds, remember that CS sees itself as a hotel first and a train second. They may think that it's okay to fit out more flimsily (going by the pics) as hotels do and completely refurb after five or so years, without realising how difficult and complicated those refits will turn out to be...

We'll see!

 

[Dumpton Park]

The mk3 sleeper compartment in full working order is a masterpiece of compact and flexible design, robust manufacture, smooth and quiet running, fire safety, and temperature control. The lack of a few ensuite WCs is their only real shortcoming in the modern age. That the fittings are only really to start to fall apart now after 37 or so years is a massive tribute to British Rail's standards of engineering. It's like someone knew that they were working towards 2018/9 as the point of expiry.

As for the new builds, remember that CS sees itself as a hotel first and a train second. They may think that it's okay to fit out more flimsily (going by the pics) as hotels do and completely refurb after five or so years, without realising how difficult and complicated those refits will turn out to be...

We'll see!

The third picture looks exactly like a MK III (the roller blind!) with a few bits and bobs added and tidied up. What I guess is an ensuite compartment seems to have a vast amount of empty floor space, so perhaps it's an accessible one?

0ne of the few faults with the III design is the amount of exposed fittings on view to allow the compartment to be reconfigured. This is not something so visible on, say, talgo trenhotels. The other incomprehensible one on them nowadays is the lack of external doorlocks and keys. I can see various reasons why it might not have been done in the early 80s, but the thought of wandering off to the bar and leaving your belongings behind is hard to imagine anyone being too keen on now.

I suspect that very useful sink cover/table top might well fall foul of H&S these fays. Yes, there's a nifty catch to keep it in place, but it'd be a heavy thing if it fell on any fingers.

DP

 

[bastien]

The third picture looks exactly like a MK III (the roller blind!) with a few bits and bobs added and tidied up. What I guess is an ensuite compartment seems to have a vast amount of empty floor space, so perhaps it's an accessible one?

0ne of the few faults with the III design is the amount of exposed fittings on view to allow the compartment to be reconfigured. This is not something so visible on, say, talgo trenhotels. The other incomprehensible one on them nowadays is the lack of external doorlocks and keys. I can see various reasons why it might not have been done in the early 80s, but the thought of wandering off to the bar and leaving your belongings behind is hard to imagine anyone being too keen on now.

I suspect that very useful sink cover/table top might well fall foul of H&S these fays. Yes, there's a nifty catch to keep it in place, but it'd be a heavy thing if it fell on any fingers.

DP

It's funny isn't it, back it the day I'd leave my luggage in the rack and go to the buffet to fetch a drink. I just assumed no-one would want to nick my laundry!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's funny isn't it, back it the day I'd leave my luggage in the rack and go to the buffet to fetch a drink. I just assumed no-one would want to nick my laundry!

The problem these days is laptops, not laundry...

 

[hexagon789]

Pics of the partially finished Mk5 interiors from a CS presentation on the HITRANS website:
Looks smart!

The compartment in the second photo looks very roomy, the third photo less so. What's the difference?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The compartment in the second photo looks very roomy, the third photo less so. What's the difference?

The second one appears to be wheelchair accessible.

 

[hexagon789]

The second one appears to be wheelchair accessible.

Seems quite cramped for a wheelchair user, or is that just the angle?

 

[Clansman]

The first and last photos are of the real seated car and standard en suite berth. The second photo is a mock up of the wheelchair accessible berth, so I imagine it'll look slightly different in real life. The camera angle makes it look smaller than it actually is, as it's meant to be a significant improvement in comparison to the ridiculous accessible berths on the Mk3 SLEDs.

 

[ScottDarg]

A few things have happened with these this week:

09/04/18: Another 4 were delivered to Polmadie: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R01039/2018/04/09/advanced

09/04/18: 73968 took a short set of 4 coaches from Polmadie to Mossend and back: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K64593/2018/04/09/advanced

10/04/18: Test runs on the West Highland Line commenced with 73971 taking 4 coaches up to Arrochar & Tarbet and back (to Polmadie): http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O89100/2018/04/10/advanced

Some pics from todays test run up the WHL (not mine): https://www.flickr.com/photos/1276-busstop/sets/72157693715889361/with/27501288088/