Calling On Discussion

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Dave1987

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bignosemac

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Please can you point the where in the rule book "calling on" is ever mentioned?

It isn't. I was just using a widely understood term. Hence the use of quote marks. Now I can sometimes be pedantic so apologies if the use of "calling on" isn't acceptable to other pedants. :roll:
 
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VP185

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Please can you point the where in the rule book "calling on" is ever mentioned with regards to position lights and permissive working?

Bad incident, shall we wait for the facts before making wild assumptions?

"Calling On" goes back to the days of semaphore signalling doesn't it? Just a term that is carried over by old school drivers.
 

Dave1987

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It isn't. I was just using a layman's term. Hence the use of quote marks. Now I can sometimes be pedantic so apologies if the use of "calling on" isn't acceptable to other pedants. :roll:

Well you seem very very keen to put down your opinion on this thread into this incident. Position lights are not "calling on" signals. They are permissive working signals with the associated rules of permissive working.
 

Dave1987

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"Calling On" goes back to the days of semaphore signalling doesn't it? Just a term that is carried over by old school drivers.

If a position light is off, you proceed at caution being prepared to stop short of vehicles, buffer stops, obstructions or the next stop signal. The "calling on" phrase refers to old semaphore signals where you would get a subsidiary arm with a 'C' on it.

Wish people wouldn't start wildly speculating......
 
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HarleyDavidson

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If a position light is off, you proceed at caution being prepared to stop short of vehicles, buffer stops, obstructions or the next stop signal. The "calling on" phrase refers to old semaphore signals where you would get a subsidiary arm with a 'C' on it.

Wish people wouldn't start wildly speculating......

Couldn't put any better myself.

I think you'll find that the term calling on signal is probably used by a lot of drivers when it comes to the dummy/PLS to bring you into an occupied platform on top of another service.

And it happens probably several hundred times a day across the entire network completely without incident.
 

VP185

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If a position light is off, you proceed at caution being prepared to stop short of vehicles, buffer stops, obstructions or the next stop signal. The "calling on" phrase refers to old semaphore signals where you would get a subsidiary arm with a 'C' on it.

Wish people wouldn't start wildly speculating......

A "Calling-on" signal still means proceed at caution towards the next train, signal or buffer stop and be prepared to stop short of any obstruction...... exactly the same as a position light.
 

bignosemac

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Well you seem very very keen to put down your opinion on this thread into this incident.

Any opinion has used careful language. I've tried where possible to stick to facts though.

Platform length is a known. Length of the two trains is a known. The only correct way to signal one train into an occupied platform line is a known. Driving so as to stop short of any obstruction when given a permissive signal is a known.

Rail industry sources say the driver reports he had the "correct" signal and RAIB were happy for signal P15 to be released to allow trains to resume running into the station from the west. So that can be taken as a known - that there is no evidence of a wrong side failure of signal P15.

I mentioned the HST being shunted forward 4 feet. That was hearsay from a rail employee at the scene. Details of the injuries also came from rail industry sources. If that's "wildly speculative" and unacceptable to you then apologies.

If there's opinion on my part that is "wildly speculative" then do please report the offending post or posts.
 

the sniper

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If a position light is off, you proceed at caution being prepared to stop short of vehicles, buffer stops, obstructions or the next stop signal. The "calling on" phrase refers to old semaphore signals where you would get a subsidiary arm with a 'C' on it.

For the benefit of any layman, the position light being 'off' means it's illuminated. If anyone's interested you can see an example in the bottom picture on this page: http://www.railsigns.uk/photos/p_route1/p_route1.html
 

Dave1987

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A "Calling-on" signal still means proceed at caution towards the next train, signal or buffer stop and be prepared to stop short of any obstruction...... exactly the same as a position light.

I do not drive under any absolute block signalling, but with TCB signalling there is no such thing as a "calling on" signal. Some people may believe I'm being pedantic but so be it.
 

Tomnick

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I do not drive under any absolute block signalling, but with TCB signalling there is no such thing as a "calling on" signal. Some people may believe I'm being pedantic but so be it.
Unless it's a semaphore calling-on signal on a TCB line...?
 

VP185

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I do not drive under any absolute block signalling, but with TCB signalling there is no such thing as a "calling on" signal. Some people may believe I'm being pedantic but so be it.

Under absolute block there is. Again, the modern colour light version of a "calling-on" signal is a position light and therefore many of who have driven under semaphore signals will still refer to them as "calling-on" signals.
 

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VP185

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There are no semaphore calling-on / shunt ahead signals in Cornwall. I believe the last one was removed some years ago and was possibly in Truro.

In areas where permissive working is allowed a colour light signal will display a proceed aspect on a position light rather than a main aspect on a signal. This will indicate to the driver the platform ahead may be occupied.

We know. But many of us still refer a position light signal as a calling-on signal when it relates to station platforms.
 

Sunset route

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If a position light is off, you proceed at caution being prepared to stop short of vehicles, buffer stops, obstructions or the next stop signal. The "calling on" phrase refers to old semaphore signals where you would get a subsidiary arm with a 'C' on it.

Wish people wouldn't start wildly speculating......

All the signallers, SSMs & LOMs at my ASC and all the train drivers we work with all universally call, Position-light signals associated with a main aspect in the off position "calling on" as does our locking charts. The term is well used inside out outside the industry.
 

LowLevel

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To be pedantic call on is perfectly correct terminology for a colour light set up and is defined as such in the RSSB signalling interlocking principles. A position light signal associated with a main aspect provides a call on function. This is a direct replacement for a traditional semaphore calling on arm associated with a stop signal. Whether the signalling is absolute block or track circuit block is irrelevant as both colour light or semaphore signalling can be found with either form of block working.

Going a bit too indepth for the topic at hand I think though. Calling the position light a calling on signal is perfectly correct according to the signalling principles though.
 

Dave1987

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Under absolute block there is. Again, the modern colour light version of a "calling-on" signal is a position light and therefore many of who have driven under semaphore signals will still refer to them as "calling-on" signals.

I've never heard any driver, instructor or DM refer to a position light as a "calling on" signal. The rule book for modern colour light signalling never refers to them as "calling on" signals so as far as I'm concerned they are not "calling on" signals. I go by the rule book and not what people on a forum decide they want to call them.
 

Dave1987

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All the signallers, SSMs & LOMs at my ASC and all the train drivers we work with all universally call, Position-light signals associated with a main aspect in the off position "calling on" as does our locking charts. The term is well used inside out outside the industry.

If I called a position light a "calling on" signal in my summary assessment I'm pretty sure I would fail that question. You may refer to them as "calling on" signals but it's not what the rule book refers to them as.
 

bignosemac

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If I called a position light a "calling on" signal in my summary assessment I'm pretty sure I would fail that question. You may refer to them as "calling on" signals but it's not what the rule book refers to them as.

I'm just happy that my use, as a mere layman, of a widely understood term (which I was fully aware wasn't the official name for a position light signal - hence my use of quote marks around "calling-on"), is recognised and understood by other rail staff on this forum.

As a layman I have no assessments to fail by using such a term. Except the assessment of a pedant. However, I'm prone to pedantry too on occasions. So, bravo.

Are you suggesting that only correct Rule Book terminology should be used on this forum?
 
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Lord Longhop

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There are no semaphore calling-on / shunt ahead signals in Cornwall. I believe the last one was removed some years ago and was possibly in Truro.

In areas where permissive working is allowed a colour light signal will display a proceed aspect on a position light rather than a main aspect on a signal. This will indicate to the driver the platform ahead may be occupied.

Is there not still a "calling on" signal from the Newquay branch into the branch platform at Par ?
 

the sniper

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If I called a position light a "calling on" signal in my summary assessment I'm pretty sure I would fail that question. You may refer to them as "calling on" signals but it's not what the rule book refers to them as.

Nobody said it did...
 

theironroad

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The term calling on signal is still widely used on Wessex region (doesn't cover Plymouth!)by drivers and signallers.

I don't know what happened, maybe a low speed slide in drizzle, maybe too fast approaching occupied platform.

If signalling OK and calling on signal given, then at caution as far as line is clear. Doesn't matter at this point whether both trains can be accommodated. If clear can't be accommodated, then no passenger doors opened and sort it from there.

All speculation.......
 

Sunset route

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The term calling on signal is still widely used on Wessex region (doesnt cover plkymouth!)by drivers and signallers.

I don't know what happened, maybe a low speed slide in drizzle, maybe too fast approaching occupied platform.

If signalling OK and calling on signal given, then at caution as far as line is clear. Doesn't matter at this point whether both trains can be accommated. If clear can't be accommated, then no pax doors opened and sort it from there.

All speculation.......

It won't be the first or last time that a "call on" is given into an occupied platform that can't accommodate both trains. Brighton is notorious for 8 on 8 when the stock gets displaced or someone shoves an extra 4 car on the back of something. Redhill is another location where if drivers forget to pull all the way up to the "A" then the train for the "B" end will overhang until the deck is reshuffled.
 
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theironroad

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It won't be the first or last time that a "call on" is given into an occupied platform that can't accommodate both trains. Brighton is notorious for 8 on 8 when the stock gets displaced or someone shoves an extra 4 car on the back of something. Redhill is another location where if drivers forget to pull all the way up to the "A" then the train for the "B" will overhang until the deck is reshuffled.

Its happened at Waterloo a few times. If only all throat approaches were straight to see what is already in platform.......
 

Phil.

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I'm just happy that my use, as a mere layman, of a widely understood term (which I was fully aware wasn't the official name for a position light signal - hence my use of quote marks around "calling-on"), is recognised and understood by other rail staff on this forum.

As a layman I have no assessments to fail by using such a term. Except the assessment of a pedant. However, I'm prone to pedantry too on occasions. So, bravo.

Are you suggesting that only correct Rule Book terminology should be used on this forum?

What are calling on signals supposed to be referred to nowadays as? I'm not a layman.
 

Crossover

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Regarding the term 'calling on' - from a non-industry viewpoint it is a term I have come across and have taken it to be related to permissive working. Logically the term makes sense as well

In the industry rulebook things may be different but I don't think it's use is doing much harm here

GWR have two 3 car 150s with middle cabs. 150925 and 150926.

Fair enough. In this case, it's not relevant anyway
 

fulmar

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What are calling on signals supposed to be referred to nowadays as? I'm not a layman.

The Rule Book refers to Semaphore Subsidiary Signals as either 'Calling On' or 'Shunt Ahead' whilst position light signals associated with a main aspect are simply referred to as 'Position-light signals associated with a main aspect'.

I doubt many people use the precise wording in reality.
 

bignosemac

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And, for the benefit of Dave1987, who, "goes by the rule book and not by what people on an internet forum decide they want to call them", here's an extract from a previous RAIB report into a platform line collision:

17 If there are already one or more trains in the platform that a train is routed into, the main signal will not clear. Instead <snip> the position light signal will clear to two white lights. This informs the driver that the platform ahead of his train is occupied by one or more trains and that he should drive at caution, ready to stop short of any obstruction. This is usually referred to as calling-on.
https://assets.digital.cabinet-offi...aeed915d4c0d000153/R092014_140501_Norwich.pdf

Official investigators using the term "calling-on". Naughty, naughty. Don't they know it's not in the rule book? :roll:
 
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TheEdge

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And, for the benefit of Dave1987, who, "goes by the rule book and not by what people on an internet forum decide they want to call them", here's an extract from a previous RAIB report into a platform line collision:

Official investigators using the term "calling-on". Naughty, naughty. Don't they know it's not in the rule book? :roll:

Oh give it a rest. The process itself is often called "calling on". In some areas, especially those with full old fashioned semaphore systems the use of the term will be more common because there are calling on signals. You quote even specifically calls the signal itself a position light because that's what its called. When there are times to be pedantic this is up there, what with the crash and all.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Is this going to be one of them things where it's known by different names in different areas (just like some areas in 3rd rail territory might refer to the 3rd rail as the "juice rail")?
 

LAX54

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"Calling On" goes back to the days of semaphore signalling doesn't it? Just a term that is carried over by old school drivers.

.......and signalmen, S&T, PWay..........:)
 
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